Thread: Needs a new handle

Phaser

It is very likely Beech. You may have trouble sourcing that in Oz. As a substitute you could use Australian hardwood. The main difficulty is in finding a species that is relatively easy to work. I think you may find that there is a piece broken of the face side of your handle also where the brass back is above the left hand saw screw.

You may also realise that the saw screws are not the originals, being just a nut and bolt. I would make up a new handle and perhaps source replacement saw screws from another saw if you do not already have spares.

Regards
Paul

Yes you're right about the missing piece. The other side has it though so I can copy.
I have another couple of theses saws. This one is 9", the others are 12" and 14". I might be able to turn up something in brass to secure the new handle.

Phaser

I have a similar saw to yours. I will dig it out tomorrow and post a pic.

Regards
Paul

Phaser

This is my saw. The brand is Thos.Turner who made products under the Encore trademark. A quick potted history (courtesy of Simon Barley's excellent book) is that Thos Turner was first established in 1802 with the Encore trademark being awarded in 1805. They were cutlers originally and the first saws appeared in 1837. According to Barley, the firm of Thomas Turner was held in high regard both as cutlers and saw makers.

P1030215.JPGP1030217.JPGP1030218.JPGP1030219.JPG

I don't particularly collect British saws and really only have this one because it belonged to my father. When I restored it I coloured the handle, something I don't now do, but in that regard it is not representative of it's original appearance.

As you can see, this saw has split nuts which dates it no later than the early 1890s as no saw maker in their right mind continued with those fragile split nuts once the Glover style patent had been issued in 1887. I had thought my saw was smaller than it is, but my memory has let me down yet again. It is in fact 12" and 12ppi, but a nice little saw which I treasure on at least a couple of counts.

I think your saw would be very good dovetail candidate so well worth while restoring.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Phaser

This is my saw. The brand is Thos.Turner who made products under the Encore trademark. A quick potted history (courtesy of Simon Barley's excellent book) is that Thos Turner was first established in 1802 with the Encore trademark being awarded in 1805. They were cutlers originally and the first saws appeared in 1837. According to Barley, the firm of Thomas Turner was held in high regard both as cutlers and saw makers.

P1030215.JPGP1030217.JPGP1030218.JPGP1030219.JPG

I don't particularly collect British saws and really only have this one because it belonged to my father. When I restored it I coloured the handle, something I don't now do, but in that regard it is not representative of it's original appearance.

As you can see, this saw has split nuts which dates it no later than the early 1890s as no saw maker in their right mind continued with those fragile split nuts once the Glover style patent had been issued in 1887. I had thought my saw was smaller than it is, but my memory has let me down yet again. It is in fact 12" and 12ppi, but a nice little saw which I treasure on at least a couple of counts.

I think your saw would be very good dovetail candidate so well worth while restoring.

Regards
Paul

Yep that's it, Thos.Turner exactly the same markings as mine.
I picked my 3 up from a garage sale a couple of weeks ago, 5 bucks each. They have all been recently sharpened, in fact still have the saw sharpener's tag on them.
I tried out the 12" one on some scrap and boy do they cut nice.
So ok what's a split nut ? I'll see if I can find it on google.

Originally Posted by phaser

So ok what's a split nut ?

Paul split nut.JPG

Phaser

This is the original style of saw screw commonly referred to as "Split Nuts" dating from 1869

Munger saw patent 1869.jpg

Henry Disston then introduced a modified version in 1876 that more closely resembles the modern hardware, but the shank was still thin and relatively fragile. The picture shows three versions with the threaded shank length varying. Disston maintained that the full length which engaged with the saw plate was the preferred type, but my own suspicion is the added thread made the screw weak and attempts to undo it probably resulted in the screw shearing:

H Disston saw screw 1876.jpg

Pix 3,4 & 5 were included with the patent to show how it differed from the Munger "split nut" style.

Lastly the ubiquitous Glover screw from 1887, which has pretty well endured until modern times:

Glover Patent 1887.jpg

You may be able to salvage screws from your other two saws (incidentally, five dollars a pop is exceptional buying. I have to ask if you employed the use a of a firearm and a mask ) but without knowing the condition of them all, my inclination would be to restore each one and make up new parts as required even if that is a new handle. Could you show us pix of the other saws too including a shot of the RHS of the handle.

Rob Streeper has identified the split nuts for you. They tend to be absolutely flat and flush finished with the handle (Glover screws are slightly domed.) Rob should know this well enough as he produces a well made modern "split nut," which has none of the originals failings. You can see here on his website.

https://www.alamotoolworks.com/produ...-nut-set-small

The split nuts on my saw are quite large for this style of handle. They are at least the size that I would expect on a 26" hand saw so you might like to consider this when checking your options.

This is a set of Rob Streeper's hardware that I am keeping for a special project yet to be determined . They are pictured with the two sizes of traditional split nuts for comparison.

P1030223.JPGP1030224.JPG

The original "split nuts" had a thin shank that was fragile and the nut itself was too thin only allowing two or a little more threads to engage with the shaft. You do need a special screwdriver for the nuts, but these are easily made. I made one from a poor quality (sacrificial) chisel and another from an old flat used file. You can also use old pieces of saw plate, which have the advantage of being a suitable thickness and do not require to be ground down. Try to get the blade the full width of the nut as this minimises the chance of burring the nuts, which frequently are in poor condition.

Split nut driver large and small.JPG Split nut driver large.JPG

I think you mentioned that you might be able to make up some hardware. If you have a metal lathe, this is entirely possible. My recommendation would be to follow Rob's lead if going for an authentic look (depending on what is on your saws of course) or the Glover patent style if appropriate.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Phaser

This is the original style of saw screw commonly referred to as "Split Nuts" dating from 1869

Munger saw patent 1869.jpg

Henry Disston then introduced a modified version in 1876 that more closely resembles the modern hardware, but the shank was still thin and relatively fragile. The picture shows three versions with the threaded shank length varying. Disston maintained that the full length which engaged with the saw plate was the preferred type, but my own suspicion is the added thread made the screw weak and attempts to undo it probably resulted in the screw shearing:

H Disston saw screw 1876.jpg

Pix 3,4 & 5 were included with the patent to show how it differed from the Munger "split nut" style.

Lastly the ubiquitous Glover screw from 1887, which has pretty well endured until modern times:

Glover Patent 1887.jpg

You may be able to salvage screws from your other two saws (incidentally, five dollars a pop is exceptional buying. I have to ask if you employed the use a of a firearm and a mask ) but without knowing the condition of them all, my inclination would be to restore each one and make up new parts as required even if that is a new handle. Could you show us pix of the other saws too including a shot of the RHS of the handle.

Rob Streeper has identified the split nuts for you. They tend to be absolutely flat and flush finished with the handle (Glover screws are slightly domed.) Rob should know this well enough as he produces a well made modern "split nut," which has none of the originals failings. You can see here on his website.

https://www.alamotoolworks.com/produ...-nut-set-small

The split nuts on my saw are quite large for this style of handle. They are at least the size that I would expect on a 26" hand saw so you might like to consider this when checking your options.

This is a set of Rob Streeper's hardware that I am keeping for a special project yet to be determined . They are pictured with the two sizes of traditional split nuts for comparison.

P1030223.JPGP1030224.JPG

The original "split nuts" had a thin shank that was fragile and the nut itself was too thin only allowing two or a little more threads to engage with the shaft. You do need a special screwdriver for the nuts, but these are easily made. I made one from a poor quality (sacrificial) chisel and another from an old flat used file. You can also use old pieces of saw plate, which have the advantage of being a suitable thickness and do not require to be ground down. Try to get the blade the full width of the nut as this minimises the chance of burring the nuts, which frequently are in poor condition.

Split nut driver large and small.JPG Split nut driver large.JPG

I think you mentioned that you might be able to make up some hardware. If you have a metal lathe, this is entirely possible. My recommendation would be to follow Rob's lead if going for an authentic look (depending on what is on your saws of course) or the Glover patent style if appropriate.

Regards
Paul

Paul's advice is spot on.
Just be very very careful this is a very serious addiction you are heading into.
Some advice may seem nice just make sure your not being groomed as a saw collector.
I once was a nice simple guy who drank to much on the weekends banging my head to a symphony of classical punk music think NIN on steroids.
Now I get up early on a Sunday morning and sneak out of the house looking for rust.

Cheers Matt

........ $5 for those saws WOW

Originally Posted by Simplicity

Paul's advice is spot on.
Just be very very careful this is a very serious addiction you are heading into.
Some advice may seem nice just make sure your not being groomed as a saw collector.
I once was a nice simple guy who drank to much on the weekends banging my head to a symphony of classical punk music think NIN on steroids.
Now I get up early on a Sunday morning and sneak out of the house looking for rust.

Cheers Matt

........ $5 for those saws WOW

Ha ha ha ha ha ha !!

I went to our local timber supplier today and he gave me (free) this piece to make the handle. he said he thought it is either blackbutt or spotted gum. Nice piece but heavy and around 45mm thick. No doubts it'll take some work to carve it out. Might have to cut down the width of the board first then run it through my bandsaw to thin it a bit before running it through the thicknesser, just a bit worried about blunting the thicknesser blades.
I realized a good way to get a close profile is to split the handle right through so I can lay it down on the timber and trace around.
Have a look at what I found once the handle was removed.
9 inch.jpg

This is the 12" saw ... Made by G&T Gray Malinda works.
12 inch 1.jpg12 inch 2.jpg

and the 14" saw ... Made by Fenton&Marsdens. You can see it has 3 screws and 1 nut is missing. That's another one to make.
14 inch 1.jpg14 inch 2.jpg

Pics are not showing for me [emoji853]


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Originally Posted by Simplicity

Pics are not showing for me [emoji853]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah don't know what happened there. The pics were showing til I went back to edit some text and now it just shows the pics as an attachment ... Weird !!!
Do you see links for the pics ?

Phaser

That happens to me frequently. It does my brain in. The only way around is go to "edit", delete the pix from the post and reload them. Just check "preview" that they appear. Check also at the foot under the post to make sure the correct number of attachments are listed.

Looking forward to seeing them.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Phaser

That happens to me frequently. It does my brain in. The only way around is go to "edit", delete the pix from the post and reload them. Just check "preview" that they appear. Check also at the foot under the post to make sure the correct number of attachments are listed.

Looking forward to seeing them.

Regards
Paul

Ok post #11 should be fixed now.
Mind you, I don't know why they call them split nuts. They're not split at all.
Maybe the name is because they pull the split in the timber to clamp the blade.