Thread: Issues found with UJK Parf Guide System. mis-aligned holes. Check yours

I have just finished laying out an MFT top that is 1200x2400mm - in all there are 220 holes, 10 x 22.

It looks like this:

MFT Top.jpg

I have checked many rows and lines using a straight edge and three bench dogs.

I have not found a single line where there is any discrepancy.

My method was similar to yours when I laid out my table - I determined what the bottom left hole position would be, and then simply laid the first ruler parallel to the front of the bench. This then gave me my first row of 10 holes, which I then extended across the entire width of the workbench per the method of using 2 3mm pins to align the ruler to extend beyond the first set of 10 holes.

My holes are pretty much spot on parallel to the front of my bench, as one would expect and hope for.

In your method, you have marked 2 lines, (1) being your starting position and (2) being the line you expect your holes to end up on on the right side of your worktop.

Visually looking at your photographs, the lines look to be different distances from the front of the bench, though this may be a result of distance from lens to top in each photo.

According to your description you have aligned your ruler to your second pencil line, and drilled according to this alignment - am I correct in my deduction here?

If so, then it seems logical to me that your second pencil line is a different distance from the front of your workbench than line number 1 - could you please verify this?

The Parf Guide rulers could also be checked for accuracy - take a set of calipers and measure the distance from the bottom of the hole to the bottom of the ruler. If these are all uniform measurements, then there should be no error on the ruler. EDIT: I looked in as much detail as I could of your last four photographs, and from what I can see, the 4 holes photographed are in the same position relative to the bottom of the ruler, as would be expected.

In this instance, keeping the bottom edge of the ruler a uniform distance from the front of the workbench will result in a parallel set of holes - your method of using a combination square to achieve this is spot on, as long as the combination square is locked and doesn't move during the operation.

Will await answers on the two questions above, as this issue greatly interests me!

As long as the holes in the rulers are in a straight line and spaced 96 mm apart their distance from the edge of the ruler is immaterial.

You are not supposed to be using that dimension for setting up. All setting up, as intended by the designer Peter Parfitt, is based on the hole spacing and alignment and if done that way your grid will be perfect.

I agree that if they were in fact equidistant from the edge your method would work quite well. This is another example of users not doing things the way that the designer intended or anticipated.

PS If you used the square to measure the the distance to the pin each time it would work.

Originally Posted by Bohdan

As long as the holes in the rulers are in a straight line and spaced 96 mm apart their distance from the edge of the ruler is immaterial.

You are not supposed to be using that dimension for setting up. All setting up, as intended by the designer Peter Parfitt, is based on the hole spacing and alignment and if done that way your grid will be perfect.

I agree that if they were in fact equidistant from the edge your method would work quite well. This is another example of users not doing things the way that the designer intended or anticipated.

PS If you used the square to measure the the distance to the pin each time it would work.

As far as I've understood it, Paulver is saying that his issue is with the alignment of the grid on the table, as opposed to the grid itself.

When laying out the initial line (presumably at the front of the workbench) using the initial single ruler, one wants to make sure that this initial line is parallel to the front of the workbench - this is where I have understood Paulver's issue to be.

When laying out this initial line, it would be perfectly logical to use a combination square or other ruler to ensure that the parf stick is parallel to the front of the workbench - I know I did.

From there, as you rightly say, once the initial line of (10?) 3mm holes are cut, one must adhere to the guide included with the kit in laying out the entire rest of the grid (which is designed completely around using only the tools in the Parf Guide kit, and no other measuring device, as you say).

Apologies if my original post caused confusion!

Originally Posted by Bohdan

As long as the holes in the rulers are in a straight line and spaced 96 mm apart their distance from the edge of the ruler is immaterial.

Agreed!

I made sure the first row of holes (not the edge of the ruler) were perfectly parallel to its nearest edge using accurate calipers etc. before drilling. Your diagram 3 is the mistake. You referenced off the edge of the ruler not the holes. The holes on the rulers have been CNC aligned and I found them perfect. Once this first row is done all the rest will fit into place. My array of holes finished up being absolutely perfect. I used engineer straight edges and squares to check this and was gob smacked to how dead on accurate this was. Its as if it was CNC made. He even shows a video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o59i3zTaLTs ) on how the rulers aren't straight and shouldn't be used as a referencing straight edge but the holes are bang on straight

Hi all, and thanks for the responses.

Instead of individual replies, I'll address your feedback together.

When I started my setup, I referred to this video from Peter where a novice was using the system for the first time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TL_MF-u57jI At around 1:50, you can see our novice measure the bottom of the edge or the ruler, to the edge of the work piece. Then he checks the opposite end. This is what I did at the start.

Bohdan and Barri, your responses are the key to the issue. After reading your feedback, I got out my Veritas really really really acurate straight edge and checked the holes are inline (Used a pin at two ends and looked at everything between). They are!!! (woohoo) The details in my post are not where the accuracy of the hole alignment matters. Although I'm still scratching my head at the variations in my measurements from the ruler edge as per the photos.

Midnight. The two horizontal lines in pics one and two are both 70mm from the edge of the panel. As you guessed, the photos aren't the same scale so it looks different. When I did the same thing as the fellow in the vid, I only had my initial hole drilled on the left and was comparing the distance from the bottom edge of the ruler to the panel. I would have expected the end hole to be intersected by my drawn line. This wasn't the case.

Your comment about using the calipers to measure the distance, is what I did with the Incra ruler in the photos. In the order they appear (clicking on the pic gives you a nice large image to see the differences) photos 5 thru 10 in order have a distance of 15mm, 16mm, 15.5mm,~15.8mm, 15.5mm, 16mm. But as per details from Barri, Align the holes and not the edge of the ruler to my lines!
.

Midnight. In your 2nd post, you understood what my aim was. I was wanting my grid to be parallel the the edge of the panel / bench top. Yep, and from that point I would have continued using the pins and two rulers as Peter intended. It was this very first step that lead to my "discovery" and following confusion.

Thanks all for your assistance. I can now get on with creating my MFT top.

I'm wondering if I should delete this thread as it could cause potential confusion for people looking to buy this excellent system.

At the 8:30 mark of that video. Bingo!

I just watched that "novice" video and you're right he used the edge of the ruler. Peter should have pulled him up on that. That part of the video should have been edited as it has, in your case, caused confusion. If you watch Peter's part 1 video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNzPVEbLxb4&t=4s ) he doesn't even bother to align the first row of holes with the edge of the board. Someone made a comment about this and he replied that it didn't really matter as all the holes will be perfect referenced off other holes not the edge of the board. In my case and yours we wanted our first row to be parallel to the nearest edge. He should have shown how to do that.

No this thread shouldn't be deleted. It will help others and for that reason I'm glad you started it.

BTW I priced a CNC made top and it was over $200 which matched the price of the kit but I intend on making a portable one I can use outside and another one for a friend. With multiple uses this then becomes good value. It really is a brilliant system.

Paulver, I think this thread should stand. We have here both the problem and the solution.

Interestingly, I did not check the video you linked, and whilst I followed exactly the Parf Guide documentation, I will admit to having laid my grid based on measuring the front row of holes from the bottom of the ruler, not the pin hole.

When one thinks about it, this should work in theory - the ruler is straight, and the holes in the ruler must also be straight (or one could not lay out an accurate row of holes to begin with).

Interesting, to say the least!

I'll read all these in the morning, but I can say that not only is mine accurate, it is HYPER accurate

The grid is smack bang on 100% exact.

I've made several surfaces for different jobs now. I especially enjoy my outdoor pre-cut one...(for nice days, or pre-cutting cv sheets before hauling them in)... Which is an entire sheet of 18mm on a tressle

I'll raise your Hyper accurate to my Super duper accurate

Originally Posted by barri

I'll raise your Hyper accurate to my Super duper accurate

You see, you must have rushed your drilling. Super Duper is far less than Hyper by at least 3 orders of magnitude.


edit: Jokes aside, after finishing and then using a known factory MDF 90° edge, on full height and width to maximise errors, it was absolutely perfectly bang-on. I think the Parf kit is magnificent and worth every cent.

As an interesting thing/note/happening, I was one of the very first buyers of the Parf kit. I emailed with Mr Parfitt when it first launched and must have received kit number 0006. The tip of the big drill bit snapped half way through the very first hole. Ah poo! Axminster were right onto it and shipped a new one that day and it arrived 2 or 3 days later (dont recall exactly, but it was crazy fast). I reckon Axminster are incredible. I love buying off them.

The easiest way to get the holes parallel to the edge is to use an oversize sheet. Once the grid is completed, use dogs in the holes to align a saw guide (this means the saw will cut exactly parallel to the holes) then cut the edge. You can use spacer blocks between dogs & guide if necessary, to get the distance you want between the row of dogs & the edge. This will result in a much more accurate "edge parallelism" than trying to set it up from an initial measurement.

Originally Posted by RossM

The easiest way to get the holes parallel to the edge is to use an oversize sheet. Once the grid is completed, use dogs in the holes to align a saw guide (this means the saw will cut exactly parallel to the holes) then cut the edge. You can use spacer blocks between dogs & guide if necessary, to get the distance you want between the row of dogs & the edge. This will result in a much more accurate "edge parallelism" than trying to set it up from an initial measurement.

Great idea if you have a track saw guide but how would you do that on a table saw?

Originally Posted by woodPixel

I reckon Axminster are incredible. I love buying off them.

I've always had great dealings with them too. always prompt responses to queries, and super fast delivery from the UK.