Thread: Jarrah Kitchen Benchtop Advice needed

Hi Rusty Nail,

Very sound advice you have offered if one is happy to go with the appearance of 19mm strips in the panels. I have recently laid up some tops for roll around butchers blocks using exactly that technique. I laid them up in 300mm widths as you have suggested and also registered the lamella on each end with a domino just to make life a bit easier when cramping. If you don't use an epoxy adhesive you have to look pretty slippery when applying the glue and doing the lay up and cramping. Limiting the width to 300 mm makes it all so much easier on the day unless you are fortunate enough to have three way cramps such as the Frontline brand to keep the whole show flat.

For what it is worth some years ago when Bunnings was a saw milling and timber processing company I was in their laminating plant in Perth when they were laying up some very large curved jarrah beams for a church construction project. They reckoned the secret with successful laminating of Jarrah was to minimise the time between dressing the timber and getting the glue on to as few minutes as you could manage. They were using PF resin at the time.

Cheers Old Pete

Originally Posted by rustynail

As a structural products executive for a major particleboard manufacturer and timber mill for many years, I would like to add a little to the debate. First, particleboard flooring has a waxed surface to assist with weather protection. This surface needs to be removed (sanded) if an adhesive is to be used. Second, particleboard flooring is a three layer product which responds poorly to single side laminations. The old five layer board responded much better. I dont think anyone makes it anymore.
May I suggest an alternative approach; Rather than using the floor boards on flat over a substrate, what about ripping them to 35mm and glue laminate with the strips on edge? This would give a 35 mm thick benchtop made up with 19mm strips. With this technique, even second hand flooring can be used as the nail holes are not visible on the surface and carefull selection of a nail hole free edge piece makes all look pristine. Epoxy glue the strips. May be easier to glue up half widths (300mm) at a time and then final glue the two 300s together to form the 600.
Hope this helps

Hi Grandad 5,

Sorry. I see I expressed my self imprecisely in my response.There was no intent to imply that marine epoxy and Bostik AV 180 were on a par with their water resistance attributes.

Old Pete

Originally Posted by Grandad-5

Old Pete, I find it interesting that you've used marine epoxy and AV180 in the same sentance. Is AV180 considered water proof or water resistant?
Or have I missed the point you're making?

In addition to a marine epoxy you should be thinking along the lines of a marine ply for the laminate. I would avoid like the plaque any underlay that is capable of absorbing water/moisture. In fact, I would consider a sealer underneath, between, and around the marine ply. Something like Bondcrete.

Of course, this adds to the cost. But better now than ripping it up in a couple of years time.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Hi Old Pete,
Your suggestion regarding glue up as soon as possible after dressing is a very good one. Most Ausie hardwoods respond better to glueing with a fresh edge.

Hi Guys

Thanks for all your comments and advice.

Dispite some of your advice (which I have only just read), I have already bought and cut the yellow tongue substrate. The kitchen I'm renovating is our only kitchen in the house we live in so I had to get a benchtop of sort in pretty quick. I can apreciate your concerns about this product with water, so will be sure to seal the boards with bondcrete as suggested by derekcohen.

I take on board your comments also about biscuit joining the boards. My problem is I have no machinery to rip the Jarrah, straighten the edges or do biscuit joins. Thats why I thought tongue and groove flooring would be an ideal alternative. I haven't bought the Jarrah boards yet. I'll have to take a look at how good the joins are.

Hi Handydaddy,

My apologies for the assumptions that you had a limitless budget plus access to the necessary machinery to undertake this task from a purist joinery stance. Going the way you propose will, I am sure, give you a very creditable outcome as long as the jarrah is straight and you don't have to build in a lot of stress in pulling the joints up tight plus you are able to find an adhesive to bond the joined jarrah panels to the yellow tongue satisfactorily. Just make sure you join the jarrah boards with a top class adhesive. You will be able to see the fruits of your efforts for years to come.

There's quite a few joins of panels shown in your plans. That's always a bit tricky specially getting a very nice straight and square edge on the cross grain panel. Did you know that you can purchase proprietary fittings called bench top joiners quite cheaply. Each joiner fits into two 35mm holes drilled in the underside of the panels. They are fantastic for pulling the panels together really tightly, really easily and very quickly. You won't find them in your local hardware store but every kitchen and bathroom manufacturer will have a big box of them in their own store and should be happy to sell you a few. Three per join is about the right number.; 50 mm in from the edges and then one in the middle. Good Luck

Old Pete

Sorry Im a bit of the proverbial Bas---- , I dont give an inch. You can joint with a cheap router from Aldi for $50 and a straight edge. You dont need a biscuit cutter. You can use dowels and make a jig. You can then get centres from bunnings to do the other board.
You aught to see what I can do with the Aluminium off an old shower screen, I have even used the glass panels to guide a router.
Sure it takes longer, and a pro carpinter looks and laughs. But guess what, Im about to finish my bathroom, The cost is 3 grand against the quote of 10 to have it done. And its our bucket list. It has to last me out. So its done to a standard better than a pro would do.
So please take a tip from me. When you do a job, see what you want, plan how it works, then sleep on that for at least 2 weeks. The problems I have solved, and the issues I have found whilst in bed nearing sleep are surprising. But again Im no longer a handy daddy and dont have those other issues.

There are always 3 ways of doing a job.
The right way.
The wrong way
And the only way you have available to you.

#3 is always there, you just have to think about it.

It may not turn out 100%, or may take you much longer but you can get there.

HandyDaddy

I did this for some bench tops in an alcove in our lounge room. 600 x1800 was the largest I did.

I used 19mm MDF, old and seasoned tassie oak (left over from the house flooring 20 years ago), with a solid edge strip at the front. It was glued down with a T&G flooring adhesive, applied by a caulking gun. I applied some kind of tung oil varnish from memory.

Positives: looked great, almost impossible to tell it from a solid bench top. It weighed a tonne, I could hardly lift that one piece alone, and certainly not carry it far by myself (ie from workshop to lounge was a 2 person job). Cost was a bargain - 1 big sheet of MDF (1200x1800 or 2400), some adhesive,

Negatives: there was definitely movement in the T&G boards, with gaps opening up between some of them. Not big, but big enough to get kitchen mess and water in them. And did I mention they were heavy?

Hope this is helpful

Trav

Hi Rrbor,

What would be the labor charge component involved in your $3000 for a bathroom makeover. If there is no labor in that figure I'd suggest its a little unfair to compare your pricing against that of a professional without qualifying your statements to that effect. Folk running a business have to use top down accounting principles to get to their pricing position. That's the reality of life I'm afraid. No offense intended.

Old Pete

Originally Posted by rrobor

Sorry Im a bit of the proverbial Bas---- , I dont give an inch. You can joint with a cheap router from Aldi for $50 and a straight edge. You dont need a biscuit cutter. You can use dowels and make a jig. You can then get centres from bunnings to do the other board.
You aught to see what I can do with the Aluminium off an old shower screen, I have even used the glass panels to guide a router.
Sure it takes longer, and a pro carpinter looks and laughs. But guess what, Im about to finish my bathroom, The cost is 3 grand against the quote of 10 to have it done. And its our bucket list. It has to last me out. So its done to a standard better than a pro would do.
So please take a tip from me. When you do a job, see what you want, plan how it works, then sleep on that for at least 2 weeks. The problems I have solved, and the issues I have found whilst in bed nearing sleep are surprising. But again Im no longer a handy daddy and dont have those other issues.

Hi Trav,

Flooring adhesive is elastomeric ( flexible) and specifically formulated to permit limited movement between boards over time and across seasons. It's not an appropriate adhesive for edge gluing of boards that require tight joinery. It's interesting that some of your boards moved after layup. Suggests that there was differential moisture content in the boards. Could this have been caused by storage conditions.

Its common in flooring applications where the timber has been insufficiently dried or dried with a too high core to case MC% gradient to see that when shrinkage occurs it exhibits as a gap opening up every 5 or 6 boards in the floor. This is caused by the boards being partially glued together by the polish and the shrinkage across glued boards being transferred to the weakest ( glued by polish) link where the gap then forms. I don't think this would be the case with your job though??.

Cheers Old Pete

Originally Posted by Trav

HandyDaddy

I did this for some bench tops in an alcove in our lounge room. 600 x1800 was the largest I did.

I used 19mm MDF, old and seasoned tassie oak (left over from the house flooring 20 years ago), with a solid edge strip at the front. It was glued down with a T&G flooring adhesive, applied by a caulking gun. I applied some kind of tung oil varnish from memory.

Positives: looked great, almost impossible to tell it from a solid bench top. It weighed a tonne, I could hardly lift that one piece alone, and certainly not carry it far by myself (ie from workshop to lounge was a 2 person job). Cost was a bargain - 1 big sheet of MDF (1200x1800 or 2400), some adhesive,

Negatives: there was definitely movement in the T&G boards, with gaps opening up between some of them. Not big, but big enough to get kitchen mess and water in them. And did I mention they were heavy?

Hope this is helpful

Trav

Originally Posted by old pete

Hi Rrbor,
What would be the labor charge component involved in your $3000 for a bathroom makeover. If there is no labor in that figure I'd suggest its a little unfair to compare your pricing against that of a professional without qualifying your statements to that effect. Folk running a business have to use top down accounting principles to get to their pricing position. That's the reality of life I'm afraid. No offense intended.
Old Pete

Hi Old Pete,
Since I readily agreed with Rrbor, I'd like to weigh in on this comment as well if I may.
Not wanting to speak on behalf of Rrbor, I would dare to suggest his $3000 doesn't include his labour. The only time a handyman should cost his own time into the job is if he's (..or she's) taking time off from paid work to do it.
Otherwise, its a simple case of choosing between writing a cheque for $10,000 to a pro or several cheques totally $3000 to various supply houses.
Unfair on the pro?
Perhaps. We're definitely not talking a level playing field here.
But as a professional myself, I take no issue if a handyman can do a similar job to me at half the price. I'm not competing with the handyman.
Cheers
Jim

No I agree I didnt cost in labour, but being retired, why would I. Doing jobs like these keeps my from sitting watching telly all day , turning into a vegetable and carking. At my age, nothing to do is not healthy.
Also being on a fixed and depleting income, sorry I cant pay for plumbers carpinters and the like.
I also have issues with the tradesmen I do get. 9 times out of 10 the job is not to the standard I would do myself, corners are cut ande it shows. Again I understand why. For examply I am tiling around a bath, This morning I took 2 hours to cut, grind and polish the edge of a corner tile that had to fit a hump , a curve and a wedge. No one other than the owner does that.
The Jarra floorboards I could edge with a router and a length of square tube Now make a jig with a piece of angle iron. Drill 2 holes where you want dowels then make a mark on the boards for the first holes. Once you drill one hole, fit the jig stick a dowel through the jig and the hole and drill the next hole.Continue moving the jig till both boards are drilled. Made my kitchen table. by that method so it works.