Thread: First Job: Yay, well sort of...

The budget is ridiculously low. This would be in the range of $4500 out of my shop.

That is not a customer. That is someone who wants you to work for free because they undervalue your skills.

You could do a torsion box with oak veneer over the top. If a client asked me to produce the table they would be looking at about $3600 from me

What the others have said but I would front your client with genuine quotes from timber suppliers,plus your break down of time, in shop materials and also offer them a couple of alternatives with costs. If you go ahead on their budget and basically do it for nix to get known they will recommend you but beware that they will also say how much they paid you and its all a recipe for going broke.

I just did a rough calc for the materials.

In Vic Ash / Tas Oak at 45mm thick top my cost would be about $650 in timber. The top on that table looks a little heavier than that to me, maybe 75mm. Me, I would prolly build up the edge to save a bit of weight. I work alone and sometimes use an engine crane to move stuff like that about. Bloody hassle though. I sort of agree with your weight calculation.

Cheers

Tell 'em they're dreamin'!

(apologies to Michael Caton)

mick

Agree with the others. For that price i would be making it from 19mm DAR material.

Originally Posted by Damienol

Hi WWF,

I have interest from a potential customer for my first ever commision that is not linked to me somehow either through family connection or friend.

The customer wants a 2mx1m table like that in the pic made from Oak. Budget is $1800-$2000.

I have a couple challenges here, that being the timber costs (using spotted gum, black but or ash as alternatives) comes in at about $1500 and that the table top will weigh in at around 150kg with the total table just short of 250kg!!!!!

Obviously I dont want to loose money on the job and cant lift 150kg.

What would others charge for a job lime this?

If anyone can get close to what the client is looking for then let me know and I will pass the details on

First off, using solid oak for a table like that is IMO a waste of material.

Secondly, working for nothing is a recipe for tears, and lots of them.

From the Ninascountrykitchen.co.uk website, the model (7ft x 30in about 2m x .75) plus two matching benches is 799 GPB, and includes "Free nation wide delivery", so I can see where the potential client is getting their budget from. Scale the original up to 2 m x 1 m, delete the benches, and adjust the VAT/GST from 20% to 10% and the AUD equivalent is around $1650. So I can see where the client is getting their budget from.


Does the client want English Oak ? -- it's available in AUS so perhaps quote them English Oak (allowing for 20% wastage -- you would need to buy much more than you need just to be able to match the boards for the top -- and a 15% handling fee), plus your estimated build time at say $80 per hour. Plus a "muscle man" and van to help you deliver the finished table.


Hopefully, it would then become a matter of managing the client's expectations.

"Cost saving" options would include
a thinner top -- and importantly, from your perspective, this would be a lighter top. The illusion of thickness can be achieved with edge strips.
a lower cost Australian species -- but make the "lower cost" to the client less than the actual cost saving in timber purchasing. But be aware that at the original thickness, an AUS hardwood would result in a table up to 50% heavier than the Oak original. Which might suggest a thin top to reduce weight.

I doubt if you could build a veneered torsion box table for anything like the cost of a solid wood top. The labour content for the torsion box would kill your potential "profit".

Originally Posted by Enfield Guy

That is not a customer. That is someone who wants you to work for free because they undervalue your skills.

To be fair the customer may not be familiar with the costs of things like a good majority of us are. Whilst some are just rude I would expect a vast majority just don't understand the costs more so than undervaluing skills.

Many would be looking around at the likes of IKEA for a new dining table - this will set expectations at around $500-$1000 for the cheap mass produced item. They may not have found what they are looking for so decided to double the cost and try and get something custom made.

As we know it's expensive to do custom over mass produced. Material costs and labour are much higher than mass produced. $2000 is still a fair wack to drop on a dining table (especially one that unattractive!) when you jump up to $4000 there would be even less willing to stump up the cash - which is perhaps why so many small furniture makes find it so hard.

If I was faced with this situation I would have an open book discussion with them. Break down the cost of materials and then your expected time. Work backwards from their budget and then show them that you will be making $0.50 per hour for your trouble. Anybody worth working for would consider this unrealistic and they have the option of increasing the budget or changing scope.

I think at the end of the day they will keep the budget as is and look at the next tier up the chain from Ikea and go for something like Freedom Furniture. Still mass produced, most likely a higher profit margin, but can still look ok for a few years.

I always now break material costs out up front, put in a decent time estimation with a basic breakdown and then dollarise that.

Clients never hesitate.

If they see a cheaper price, they will know they are either getting cheaper materials or shivved on labour quality.

I also offer additional embellishments on the quote, ways to save money or discussion/alternatives ... "you could do this...", "or this is an alternative..."

They 90% go with a recommendation. If they understand the process they understand the price.

BTW, I make my money now from this kind of work.

Evan

I checked the photos on Nina's web site. that table is about 35mm thick with a 45-50mm apron around it to chunk it up.

The line between the top and apron is quite visible.

Makes a huge difference in material costs.

Also, Nina's country kitchen are using recovered Oak

That table doesn't look like it is designed to cope with exp/contr either. the apron running along the outer edge is going to be a problem, how to allow for movement in the slab???

I've got a 2.1m x 1m my wife bought ten years ago ($2,000) where the maker used the old Indian Rubber Wood (import!) The slab has a skirt along the sides (flush with top) and torsion frame underneath. (the leg frames at least sit independent at the ends) The dang thing still pushes and pulls those side skirts because the top shrinks and expands but the cross members underneath don't of course. Sometimes the side skirts flare out when the top shrinks

I recently built an extension on a clients house. She purchased all new furniture etc and that (or similar) table and pews were one of them. Im pretty sure it was around the $6500 + mark. The whole affect of it was a rough, aged look that looked like it would hand out a few splinters. the top had around 6 pieces (75 x 19mm estimated) on a 45 degree with other pieces the same size cut squarely into theses angles. All the pieces were bevelled etc. Was that the look? Almost like a fancy deck minus gaps. It almost looked as though it was sandblasted or something to really highlight the grain. highs and lows.

To complete the look she had goat skins on the pews... I did marvel at the look and build quality. Was amazing.

That table in the picture isn't Oak its Pine . It also isn't recovered that I can see, Its new wood .
And the construction is slapped together glued and screwed. Otherwise known as crap waiting to fall apart in a few years.
A quick flick through their other tables shows up some of the bad methods of joinery by the plugged up screw holes .
what looks like a through stretcher rail is a butted and screwed rail with a end grain piece added /screwed to look like its a through tenon.

Rob