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Thread: Joint Layout

  1. #1
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    Default Joint Layout

    I am making a saw till from a photograph and I am wondering if what I see is an perspective thing or a design thing. The circled corner compared to the top one appears not to be cut with an angle ala one side of a DT while the bottom circled one appears to be straight. I could do it either way, no big deal or am I missing something as the weight of the saws sit on the cross bar.

    saw-till-drawer-3.jpg
    CHRIS

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    I think it might be a perspective thing. The longer I stare at it the more I think it is DTed
    Those were the droids I was looking for.
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    It is definitely DT'd.

    If it was just a straight cut, the line would look to be parallel with the sides of the drawer... which it patently isn't.
    I may be weird, but I'm saving up to become eccentric.

    - Andy Mc

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Parks View Post
    I am making a saw till from a photograph and I am wondering if what I see is an perspective thing or a design thing.
    Hi Chris . Yes it looks angled at top and bottom, but what you have shown us here is something that technically is the wrong way for a rail to be joined across the front of a carcase like that.
    You can see why, with what looks like a split above the join , in the side from the day it was made.

    If I think back to 18th / 19th century carcase construction of chests , cabinets , bookcases, boxes ,drawers and basically everything , it would be hard to find another example produced by a professional tradesman of the day done that way.


    Rob

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    Quote Originally Posted by auscab View Post
    Hi Chris . Yes it looks angled at top and bottom, but what you have shown us here is something that technically is the wrong way for a rail to be joined across the front of a carcase like that.
    You can see why, with what looks like a split above the join , in the side from the day it was made.

    If I think back to 18th / 19th century carcase construction of chests , cabinets , bookcases, boxes ,drawers and basically everything , it would be hard to find another example produced by a professional tradesman of the day done that way.


    Rob
    Thanks for the heads up Rob, sometimes the obvious escapes us. I might change it to a round bar if I can get my mate Pat to make me one! Any suggestions apart from that would be appreciated for an alternative idea.
    CHRIS

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    Chris, I can't see that dovetail joint contributing anything to structural integrity, it's just decorative. The carcase is joined with dovetails at the bottom (& presumably the top), and oriented so the sides support any load from the drawer (which won't be much). A plywood back rebated & glued would resist wracking, but once attached to a wall, there won't be much tendency for that, either.

    For the cross-piece the handles sit on, a D/T the way it is set out adds little if anything at all to its ability to resist being kicked out of its socket if the glue should weaken or fail - a simple checked joint would do as well. If you were worried about it holding, a couple of brass screws would reinforce it (but would be rather unsightly). However, that's probably overkill - in normal use, the static load of the saws isn't that much, so even the current 'faulty' design should suffice.

    If I were making something like this, I'd make the sides a bit wider at that point and the drawer a bit deeper (shallow drawers are a pita unless you fit a stop on them, too easy to inadvertently pull right out!). That would give you plenty of meat to use a dowel for the handles to sit on. The dowel wouldn't need to be set very far back from the edge. On my tool tote, the grain orientation of the sides is the 'wrong' way as far as the handle is concerned, but it has copped rough handling & heavy loads for many a year without any sign of failing: Tool tote.jpg

    The handle is 25mm hardwood dowelling which doesn't deflect even with a heavy load, so something like 30-35mm for that width of saw till would be more than adequate, I reckon...

    Cheers,
    IW

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    Ian, thanks for the input. I have already made the sides so the drawer depth is going to be set by what the straight part at the bottom of each side which to be honest I have not made deep enough. It is in Blackwood so a good chance it won't split as in the photo but then again stuff happens. I ignored the DT's at the bottom because I thought it was just a bit too "look at me" for what is a utilitarian tool for the shed.
    CHRIS

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    Quote Originally Posted by auscab View Post
    Hi Chris . Yes it looks angled at top and bottom, but what you have shown us here is something that technically is the wrong way for a rail to be joined across the front of a carcase like that.
    You can see why, with what looks like a split above the join , in the side from the day it was made.
    Rob, can you expand on why this is a bad idea for us less knowledgeable folk?

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    Lance, if you have a close look at the picture the upper DT has a caused the wood to crack because the DT layout is parallel with the grain in the wood. I hadn't noticed it until Rob pointed it out.
    CHRIS

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    Chris, I doubt you'll have any problem with your rail with or without the dovetail - it doesn't have to take much punishment, unless you slam a saw back in a fit of temper some day. If the rail ever does show signs of letting go, you could just make it a bit more utilitarian by driving a couple of screws in (brass screws, of course!)

    I suspect the wood in the 'original' pic is Yellow Poplar, from its appearance. Y.P. is a very soft, splitty wood, and if you were a bit careless driving a too-tight dovetail in, that split we see would be a very likely outcome. Who hasn't split the occasional outside pin on assembling a set of D/Ts? A rare event these days, but I sure did bust one or two in my early days of impatience & not-too-careful sawing.

    Actually, I have seen a similar joint on an old piece (i.e. a side-grain 'tail' in a long-grain socket). It was on a sub-frame of a Victoriaan era expandable table, iirc. Thinking about it, the only 'bad' thing I can see about doing a joint like that is that you have a very wide 'tail' (with the possibility of significant seasonal movement), enclosed in a non-moving socket (wood moves negligibly along the grain). Normally, dovetails are joined with the grain orientation the same in both pieces, so they move together with the seasons. However, we routinely join rails to stiles with the grain orientations 'mismatched' & they hold up, so I doubt it's likely to be a serious issue.

    Cheers,
    IW

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Parks View Post
    Thanks for the heads up Rob, sometimes the obvious escapes us. I might change it to a round bar if I can get my mate Pat to make me one! Any suggestions apart from that would be appreciated for an alternative idea.

    Yeah I started writing alternative ideas up last night and the post just got longer and longer .
    So I scrubbed it back to the basics .

    Its interesting that it was rarely done but I'm sure I have seen it on some things . Edwardian small things where they probably screwed it , Dome head Brass or Iron screws like Ian said rings a bell . The sort of thing with that fine line carved decoration ?

    You could do it carefully and get away with it . Or you could lower that side part where it changes direction above the DT piece and just have the horizontal piece come right through. Screw , nail or dowel it on so you no longer have the short top part of the side You would still have the lower part though .

    Or you could do what I think some tradesman of the 18th to 19c may have done, and DT a 19mm horizontal rail in above the drawer, You get to see and exposed DT on the face each side. They used to cover them with 5mm of solid right up the sides of a chest but exposed suits your need.

    They didn't run the DT right through most of the time. The 18th C method for the English just had the DT going back roughly 80 mm and it was a housing joint back from that, A 19 mm high by 7mm deep trench. What sat in that was a 12mm board running across from L to R with a 7mm high stick wedged in to hold it up .

    You could just do a 19mm glued in board though to keep it simple . And DT it right through.

    I'm saying this because I'm assuming there is a bottom in behind that front DT rail . There is isn't there?? To keep dust out of the drawer?

    To get the height you need you would have to glue in the rail and just butt it to the sides. Butting it means no joins. It would be well fitted and glued down to the DT 19mm rail and glued at its sides as well .
    What you see the old guys do is then add nice neatly shaped corner blocks rubbed in with hide glue neatly spaced to give it strength. Doesn't have to be hide glue. But a row of them laid along the length inside and one each side joining the front horizontal to the side as well. You wouldn't see them unless the till is empty and you lean over to see them. And its a nice sight when you do. The 18th c method had the glue blocks neatly shaped with a chisel and when the piece was being finished they coated over the inside with a mix of glue and ocher colours. Red ocher . its what you see looking under a 18th C chest of drawers at all the glue blocks . They could be Mahogany fronted chests with the rest Pine and the Ochre colours tied it all together.

    Or you could forget all that and do a small M and T or Biscuit at each end .

    The bar idea could be good too .

    A few things to consider .

    The original DT could be made smaller or how about doing three smaller ones each side ? To match whats in the base. Its still changing directions the wrong way compared to the sides but its a nice thing to see and a workshop piece . So you will be watching what happens to it in the future.

    Nice saw display what ever way its done .

    Rob

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Parks View Post
    Thanks for the heads up Rob, sometimes the obvious escapes us. I might change it to a round bar if I can get my mate Pat to make me one! Any suggestions apart from that would be appreciated for an alternative idea.
    Another fun turning job

    Do I get scale drawings or even measurements or is it the usual "Here's a pic of what I want, you work it out"
    Pat
    Work is a necessary evil to be avoided. Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pat View Post
    .......Do I get scale drawings or even measurements or is it the usual "Here's a pic of what I want, you work it out"
    Whaaat? Scale drawings! Where's your sense of adventure, Pat? My usual 'working drawings' consist of a vague description, which can often be most confusing when coming from non-woodworkers. Even more confusing is when I do get a picture, with "this is sort of what I want, but it has to have this bit done differently & I don't want this bit" (the latter usually being some essential structural part ). I imagine plenty of you will know the feeling......

    Cheers,
    IW

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanW View Post
    Whaaat? Scale drawings! Where's your sense of adventure, Pat? My usual 'working drawings' consist of a vague description, which can often be most confusing when coming from non-woodworkers. Even more confusing is when I do get a picture, with "this is sort of what I want, but it has to have this bit done differently & I don't want this bit" (the latter usually being some essential structural part ). I imagine plenty of you will know the feeling...... ,
    Hehe. Yeah.

    The worst are the ones drawn on a McDonalds napkin. [shudder]

    They're on a par with the templates from hell... the large, floppy ones made from bits of styrofoam, cardboard and other detritus duct-taped together and the instructions "the dimensions are critical, it needs to be within 1mm."
    I may be weird, but I'm saving up to become eccentric.

    - Andy Mc

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