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Thread: Laminating 2 types of plywood
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1st September 2018, 05:47 PM #16
The thought has crossed my mind - the problem is, it is black, and I think that is a big detractor to using it - we're talking nearly 7 metres of workbench & cabinetry, and I'm concerned it will suck the light out of that area, if you know what I mean.
In all other respects, it's an awesome product, and I would love to use it.
I had even thought of melamine, but am unsure as to how it would go as a worktop, where unintentional abuse is likely to happen.
I should also clarify, given some thoughts above, this is a work surface, where I will put things like drill press, chisel mortiser and the like - but it isn't my main workbench as such, that will be a nice, big, heavy Roubo style.
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1st September 2018, 09:27 PM #17Woodworking mechanic
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Reading your last post, I would have concern using form ply in your situation. It’s slippery - I used it for my router table top and saw table top. I personally would have problems putting machinery on it that I wanted stable.
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1st September 2018, 11:24 PM #18
Thanks Lappa, I didn't realise FormPly was actually slippery - I haven't actually used it anywhere yet.
I'm getting a fairly clear idea at this stage that the go-to product for affordable construction (especially given the size) is going to be MDF with a protective varnish on it (someone earlier suggested a flooring varnish - brilliant thinking, thank you!).
It's not quite as light in colour as I would ideally like, but getting something like a birch pale look that would reflect and lighten the space is probably going to be way more expensive than a couple more LED light fixtures!
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1st September 2018, 11:35 PM #19GOLD MEMBER
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If you really want to lighten the colour use white finish.
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2nd September 2018, 12:45 AM #20
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2nd September 2018, 03:43 PM #21
Not much was sliced for ply production, due to production costs. Only the higher quality face veneers for ply were sliced, the rest was rotary peeled. I used to sit and watch the machinery in the local ply mills after school in the late 1960's to '70's. Veneers for high end applications, marquetery etc were certainly sliced.
Formply makes a durable work surface, but it is slippery, and it is very difficult / time consuming to form acceptable glued joints. All joints would need to rely upon mechanical fasteners only unless you form dado style cuts to remove the phenolic surface at each joint.Mobyturns
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4th September 2018, 12:47 PM #22GOLD MEMBER
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4th September 2018, 01:53 PM #23
Beg to disagree, rotary mills were common in FNQ well before the 1960's. Plus a little bit of history - http://www.tropikkal.com/timber/woolloongabba.htm
1959 Plywood Board QLD Veneer Mills.jpgMobyturns
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15th September 2018, 09:23 AM #24New Member
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There are so many reasons why it is not a good idea to try and laminate a thin sheet of ply to a thicker one, some of which have already been mentioned. There is no way that you will be able to get even pressure across the whole sheet to ensure even adhesion. I worked in the industry and we used large plattens that were machined dead flat to ensure even adhesion. You WILL get delamination and there is nothing worse than having a spot in the middle of your work area that has delaminated. It will move as Elan said. it is timber but the main issue here is that you are using different thicknesses as I am positive the individual ply thickness will be different for your 18mm ply as opposed to your birch. The timber in the 2 sheets are different the 18mm will be pine and obviously your birch or whatever you decide to use, have different densities and therefore their take up of moisture is different and thats why you will get movement.
MDF is a good and relatively inexpensive solution, seal and clash the edges with timber and you should get a decent surface that will last for years it has reasonable impact resistance as well more so than plywood. My 2 cents.
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15th September 2018, 11:21 AM #25SENIOR MEMBER
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yep I remember in the 60s going to Wangan in FNQ and watching the rotary mill slicing veneer for ply making.
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15th September 2018, 12:00 PM #26GOLD MEMBER
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Sorry, I think I have mislead you. I was referring to a mill that dated back to the early 1900's. We apprentices went to see it in the 1960's, before it was decommissioned and the factory pulled down. We were assured,at the time, this was the first rotary mill in Australia. A believe Brimms had the first in QLD.
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15th September 2018, 04:13 PM #27
MM
Good quality plywood is amazing, but not all plys are good quality! Bearing in mind the budget is not unlimited why mot consider MDF (Actually better still would be the HMR version as it is "resistant" to moisture and while not waterproof would be sufficient for your purpose).
It glues up easily and the issue of clamping is not really an issue at all: Just screw it together. Recently I needed a largish flat surface and something flatter than my rather crude work bench. I screwed and glued three pieces together from what was originally a single sheet 2400 x 1800. Glue two pieces first and then the third on the underside. No screws visible on the top surface. The pic I took was the underside I now realise!
P1040319 (Medium) (2).JPGP1040320 (Medium) (2).JPG
As it happens, just recently I had to retrieve my son's horizontal drilling rig from Newcastle. It is still on the ute.
P1040293 (Medium).JPGP1040294 (Medium).JPG
It comprises two benches. The longer at 3.4m is three pieces of melamine glued and screwed together. This was made about five years ago and for the last three has been stored in less than ideal conditions. It is still straight as a die. It also is three layers thick and has a timber surround. The original sheet was 2.4m so there is a staggered joint. The second pic is the underside.
P1040317 (Medium) (2).JPGP1040321 (Medium).JPG
The second bench was made of only two pieces of unequal thickness and it has sagged a little as you may be able to see. This may well be due to the different thickness and also because the edges were unprotected and does echo Elan's and Pasquan's comments
P1040318 (Medium).JPG
In the past I have made wardrobe doors using this principle
P1040324 (Medium).JPG
When I first came to glue the melamine I was unsure what glue to use so I experimented with three test pieces which were only glued (not screwed.) I used PVA, contact cement and Liquid Nails. The next morning I took each piece and hurled it to the ground several times with extreme force. All good. In fact about eight years later these are the three pieces which are useful for packing up work, mainly on the drill press, as they are very uniform.
P1040322 (Medium).JPG
The only things I did with the MDF was to sand the melamine very quickly with a coarse grit on an orbital sander (probably 80g) to roughen the surface and provide a key. Really all I did was remove the sheen.
For a workbench I believe this method will provide a stable and level work surface providing it is flat when assembled and without further planing. It gives a good depth to the bench if you wish to use holdfasts with dog holes (Use as many thicknesses as you wish, but have help lifting it into place. It's heavy stuff). The last reason for using it is the cost: Not too much!
Regards
PaulBushmiller;
"Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"
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15th September 2018, 06:08 PM #28
Many thanks for the thoughts and information on using MDF
As I'm not in a rush to build (going the route of do it once, do it right), I've been mulling this bench over a bit in my mind, and have pretty much decided MDF is the right material for it in terms of cost vs outcomes - I hadn't considered HMR MDF though, so many thanks for the tip on that!
I've now also recently picked up a Domino 500 - and given that I don't really have much else yet in the way of joinery systems, I was thinking of using the Domino for the joinery (especially drawers etc). I'm not sure though whether the PVA glue will swell the MDF, so may I please ask whether you found this to be an issue when assembling your three test pieces with their various adhesives please?
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15th September 2018, 07:41 PM #29
I did not notice any swelling as a result. This may well be because of the melamine, which I think provides a relatively impervious surface. Also if HMR material is used it is quite resistant anyway. I would not anticipate it being an issue. Make sure that your pieces are flat when they are screwed together of course. Once you have the first two sheets together subsequent sheets are easy.
Just on the two pieces of unequal thickness on the shorter bench, I realised when I checked, the thicker section was actually chipboard so not quite the same material we are talking about above.
Like you, I have grand plans for a split top Roubo, but that is a little way off yet.
One last general comment on the plastic covered formply ( I had only ever seen dark red or black and it used to be available in both hardwood (red) and softwood (black) versions) is to be very careful when transporting it. It is so slippery that it has been known to escape the confines of a vehicle tray straight out the back, because the tailgate had been removed. Tie it down really well. I agree with Lappa that it's best use is for tables where friction is not wanted . My first ever table top router table was made from offcuts of this material.
Regards
PaulBushmiller;
"Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"
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15th September 2018, 11:37 PM #30
Many thanks Paul for the clarification and additional information!
As this project will be part of a complete shed fitout (workshop side), I'm thinking about starting a thread in the Shed section to document the process and construction of this bench
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