Thread: Liability for small shops?

I'm glad you intervened Fred, nothing worse than things getting out of hand. Not much has been said from a woodturner's POV. I've attended many events (one notable one in QLD that I will not name lest I am accused of being things I am not), where there are no safety guards in front of lathes. And I have seen stuff come flying out of lathes (mainly caused by catches and poor chucking methods) that says enough to me that liability insurance is a must, especially when you don't mitigate the risks ie guards. I also suspect that in time Turning Clubs in particular will come under scrutiny for poor dust control. Unfortunately, it's the times we live in. I add that the VWA has not, to my knowledge, had a claim put in yet, so the $ cost for PL insurance must be arbitrary. Accidents in woodturning are real and people die each year from missiles etc. I just hope it's not me (or me that caused it).

Originally Posted by apricotripper

I imagine the odds are irrelevant if you've made your mind up not to be interested in them. ......

Just one simple question for Apricotripper - do you have any insurance policies?

Originally Posted by apricotripper

I imagine the odds are irrelevant if you've made your mind up not to be interested in them. Sounds like the pixies could have made up the insurance odds and you'd accept them.

Semantics on the word fear. If your reacting in advance to the concern of something going wrong…..in my book .THATS FEAR.

The issue on felling shake was brought up earlier concerning a lawsuit problem with m&T cedar joints. My point of prevention suggests that effort is put towards PREVENTING it, rather than it just being seen as something that insurance can cover.

Not being a frequent worker of cedar I wanted to know what is being done about it. I suggested a few ways I'd consider in ensuring none of it ends up the chair. I did this hoping you'd discuss it, but got the impression, you didn't want to know. That its secret trade business, which is often a good way to cover that '''''nothings being done''''.

You've said your a frequent worker of cedar who clearly has a large knowledge on the subject. I asked plenty what you think can be done, because you implied it was a common thing at one stage at least. I wasn't intending to be confronting because I'm always into learning important points. Being a worker of timber I think it would be a natural thing for me wanting to know what the #### was going on .. Sudden breaks in a chair that gives no warning signs of trouble, is disastrous.

you've avoided it …..Thus -> its being ###### secretive isn't it.

Its you don't know, for christs sake just say……I don't know…….. I'm so over people that need to push their wisdom to such extremes that when they don't know….they avoid it, or refer to it as a secret, or ramble on about info unrelated to change the topic, out of fear of not looking 'professional' because the truth is they don't really know.

Thanks very much for the character reference. If I was still in the work force I would add it to my CV.
I fail to see the significance of labouring a single timber fault when there are many others that have equal ability to render a piece of timber unstable. Common sense would dictate that any obvious fault would manifest itself during manufacture. Its the less obvious that slip through the system.
I was not being secretive. I had just decided not to discuss it any further as I was becoming a little sick and tired of the misquotes and innuendoes.

Originally Posted by Mobyturns

Just one simple question for Apricotripper - do you have any insurance policies?

I've already said this a couple of times back there that I do. Does having it mean then I must agree with the whole idea of insurance ? (course not)

I have to have insurance with my work simply because its a requirement. If I don't have it , I'm not allowed to display. full stop. Nothing at all to do with what I really feel about it.

[QUOTE]
Thanks very much for the character reference. If I was still in the work force I would add it to my CV.
[QUOTE/]
I appoligise for not kissing bum ( can I say bum).

[QUOTE]
I fail to see the significance of labouring a single timber fault when there are many others that have equal ability to render a piece of timber unstable. Common sense would dictate that any obvious fault would manifest itself during manufacture. Its the less obvious that slip through the system.
[QUOTE/]
well I'll repeat it again. which is confusing because I'm the one who needs educating apparently. Who knows. Maybe my grammas so bad that even the wise can't get the gist of what I'm saying.

Don't need to labour on it. There should be a simple answer ….to which I would say….' ahhh gotcha'.

You've mentioned the importance of insurance to help compensate for injury. A good honourable thing to do (makes us sound good). Implying if you don't have it, your irresponsible.
You've pointed out a lawsuit concerning dangerous blind felling shake on a cedar M&T chair, suggesting the importance of getting insurance.
I want to know what is been learned from the failures of the past. because the good honourable thing to do would be to implement preventive measures. ie. now that you know this is possible what are you or your colleagues that work this timber doing about it to help prevent it happening again.

nothing ? something ? what ?
are you devising a strength test ? I bend timber so have this on my mind all the time so thats why I brought it up.
are you trying to sight the flaw with other means (ultraviolet light I mentioned …just as wild shot in the dark)

Don't you think discovering flaws like this should be a priority. The could cause sudden falls without warning. or , buggerit, its really rare anyway, I won't bother about it. I'll make it all feel good by just getting insurance.

Is it really that acceptable that we are allowed to be honourable good people in one direction, but not the other? apparently ?

I was not being secretive. I had just decided not to discuss it any further as I was becoming a little sick and tired of the misquotes and innuendoes.

BS. People get secretive when they avoid questions that have a simple answer. Nothing was misquoted. I put a lot effort into insuring I hadn't.

I suggest you look back at things you've said throughout this thread….

But in anycase Hope you have a good day.

I gotta say you chair guys are certainly "different" and I mean that in a good way. A secret society indeed. Keep the secrets, you've earnt them. As I said earlier, I make lots of things but not chairs. Best left to the experts. But please try to be nice to each other! Otherwise, a good read.

[QUOTE=apricotripper;1770766][QUOTE]
Thanks very much for the character reference. If I was still in the work force I would add it to my CV.
[QUOTE/]
I appoligise for not kissing bum ( can I say bum).

I fail to see the significance of labouring a single timber fault when there are many others that have equal ability to render a piece of timber unstable. Common sense would dictate that any obvious fault would manifest itself during manufacture. Its the less obvious that slip through the system.
[QUOTE/]
well I'll repeat it again. which is confusing because I'm the one who needs educating apparently. Who knows. Maybe my grammas so bad that even the wise can't get the gist of what I'm saying.

Don't need to labour on it. There should be a simple answer ….to which I would say….' ahhh gotcha'.

You've mentioned the importance of insurance to help compensate for injury. A good honourable thing to do (makes us sound good). Implying if you don't have it, your irresponsible.
You've pointed out a lawsuit concerning dangerous blind felling shake on a cedar M&T chair, suggesting the importance of getting insurance.
I want to know what is been learned from the failures of the past. because the good honourable thing to do would be to implement preventive measures. ie. now that you know this is possible what are you or your colleagues that work this timber doing about it to help prevent it happening again.

nothing ? something ? what ?
are you devising a strength test ? I bend timber so have this on my mind all the time so thats why I brought it up.
are you trying to sight the flaw with other means (ultraviolet light I mentioned …just as wild shot in the dark)

Don't you think discovering flaws like this should be a priority. The could cause sudden falls without warning. or , buggerit, its really rare anyway, I won't bother about it. I'll make it all feel good by just getting insurance.

Is it really that acceptable that we are allowed to be honourable good people in one direction, but not the other? apparently ?



BS. People get secretive when they avoid questions that have a simple answer. Nothing was misquoted. I put a lot effort into insuring I hadn't.

I suggest you look back at things you've said throughout this thread….

But in anycase Hope you have a good day.

Misquotes: 1) There was no lawsuit re the chair that involved my uncle. 2) It APPEARED to be a felling shake. Never said it was a felling shake. 3)Arsenic vs Cyanide.
If you genuinely wanted someones opinion, you would not go about it the way you have chosen to do so here. I dont need some two bob upstart to tell me how to make a chair or select a piece of timber. Nor do I need to be told which specie to use for what. As for being led down the path of no return by dispensing of insurance policies because the odds say I should, I choose to reject your logic as it flies in the face of common sense. Go find another brain to pick.

keep it nice........

DavidG
Moderator

A little OT, but this thread has wandered somewhat over 10 pages, so I plead "pre-existing contravention".

SilentC, have you considered third party property cover for your "bomb"? Pretty inexpensive, and covers running up the back of a Merc or Beamer; if other party is at fault (and insured) you're OK too; your car is only not covered if you're at fault - but that's the point, it's not worth much.

Must confess I do fall into the having insurance camp.

Cheers

Mark

Yes it's probably at the stage now where that would make sense.

Originally Posted by apricotripper

I've already said this a couple of times back there that I do. Does having it mean then I must agree with the whole idea of insurance ? (course not)

I have to have insurance with my work simply because its a requirement. If I don't have it , I'm not allowed to display. full stop. Nothing at all to do with what I really feel about it.

I must have missed that in the 10 pages of posts but that was the response I had expected – “it’s a requirement.”

Now back to Evanism’s orig post.

Small businesses are registered nationally and are required ("forced") to hold Public Liability insurance cover and to meet other requirements to obtain some form of business registration or to do particular forms of work. Mostly those operators are service providers (tradies) who consider Public Liability insurance essential and probably for the wrong reasons - no insurance - no work - no income. The tradie forgets that it protects their assets. If your activity is outside those sorts of activities it probably easy to assume that you do not need any insurance, or have to comply with planning approvals etc.

How many tradies have you heard of who have faced a Public Liability insurance claim? The odds for a tradie facing a potential claim are probably much lower than for a chair or toy maker but they carry insurance because "they have too."

Now if the "service" is a consumer product like a chair or child’s toy isn't it logical that Product Liability insurance is as essential as Public Liability insurance? More so if you are a sole trader operating under your own name and if you want to protect your assets. The maker/manufacturer of a consumer product has responsibilities under consumer legislation and must meet safety regulations, codes of practice, Australian Standards etc.

I would be researching the subject a bit further to see if there is any requirement to register a business, comply with planning laws, hold insurance etc.

Misquotes: 1) There was no lawsuit re the chair that involved my uncle. 2) It APPEARED to be a felling shake. Never said it was a felling shake. 3)Arsenic vs Cyanide.
If you genuinely wanted someones opinion, you would not go about it the way you have chosen to do so here. I dont need some two bob upstart to tell me how to make a chair or select a piece of timber. Nor do I need to be told which specie to use for what. As for being led down the path of no return by dispensing of insurance policies because the odds say I should, I choose to reject your logic as it flies in the face of common sense. Go find another brain to pick.

ok. my apologies. I must have got my wires crossed on the irrelevant details of the problem. It appeared to be felling shake. (and I've already apologised for arsenic vs cyanide as if it makes a bloody big difference since their both poisons)

Now being just an upstart, please tell me how one goes about identifying blind felling shake that can cause sudden failure in a part ! As it sounds to me, to be a very dangerous situation.

Being just an upstart, who has a thirst for learning new things, I would like to know. Everybody who involves themselves into any kind of furniture (not just chairs) making would want to know wouldn't they ? A sudden split that we can't see, that appears out of nowhere.

I've got some ideas (i'll repeat them again)….
- a stress test of some sort ? …..twisting the ends of the timber somehow ( my stress tests are an integral part of its construction -> bending)
- an ultraviolet test ...

Do you have any ideas to add ? …. Maybe we can nut out some ideas….. I'm not testing ya. Solving a problem like this would be far more important than anyones pride wouldn't it ? Give a good result to otherwise pointless conversation about insurance, because its void of reliable information. (thats a big lack of common sense on both of our parts isn't it DAD ?)

Jesus, if only you were Campese ! …then there wouldnt be any argument what so ever. I'd arsse kiss , and ask for your autograph.

In anycase, don't let an upstart bother you, thats not worth talking to. Have a good weekend mate.

Originally Posted by apricotripper

ok. my apologies. I must have got my wires crossed on the irrelevant details of the problem. It appeared to be felling shake. (and I've already apologised for arsenic vs cyanide as if it makes a bloody big difference since their both poisons)

Now being just an upstart, please tell me how one goes about identifying blind felling shake that can cause sudden failure in a part ! As it sounds to me, to be a very dangerous situation.

Being just an upstart, who has a thirst for learning new things, I would like to know. Everybody who involves themselves into any kind of furniture (not just chairs) making would want to know wouldn't they ? A sudden split that we can't see, that appears out of nowhere.

I've got some ideas (i'll repeat them again)….
- a stress test of some sort ? …..twisting the ends of the timber somehow ( my stress tests are an integral part of its construction -> bending)
- an ultraviolet test ...

Do you have any ideas to add ? …. Maybe we can nut out some ideas….. I'm not testing ya. Solving a problem like this would be far more important than anyones pride wouldn't it ? Give a good result to otherwise pointless conversation about insurance, because its void of reliable information. (thats a big lack of common sense on both of our parts isn't it DAD ?)

Jesus, if only you were Campese ! …then there wouldnt be any argument what so ever. I'd arsse kiss , and ask for your autograph.

In anycase, don't let an upstart bother you, thats not worth talking to. Have a good weekend mate.

Perhaps a new thread on the topic of identifying 'blind felling shake' is in order? It doesn't really come under the heading of 'Liability for small shops', and so won't be found by others in the future who want to research that subject. It's been laboured to death in this thread.
Under it's own title, you're likely to get more contributors to solve that problem, too.

Originally Posted by Hermit

Perhaps a new thread on the topic of identifying 'blind felling shake' is in order? It doesn't really come under the heading of 'Liability for small shops', and so won't be found by others in the future who want to research that subject. It's been laboured to death in this thread.
Under it's own title, you're likely to get more contributors to solve that problem, too.

I think that sounds fair enough. as long as I get to have the last word !