Thread: Liability for small shops?

Originally Posted by apricotripper

Fair enough.

The world you live in, is much different to mine. I'm not large production. Majority of things you've mentioned will never be a concern to me. (thank god). And I doubt will be for most small businesses(which is what I thought evanism was talking about).

Guessing…
- you'd have a much greater money flow to just cover insurance quickly like any other bill. Bigger business must drain all your time.
- Weight to strength ratio….. never need to be a consideration for one piece work like I do. Never will have to consider transport big shipments of chairs overseas. So, I can ensure my pieces are stronger (and put more effort into each one).
- your steam bending experiences differ to mine. Stuff I need to know, you don't and visa versa.

What would be an interesting figure though is ……. how much in premiums would have you paid over your career. Total……And then compare that to a ruff loss that would be incurred from one lawsuit . That would at least give some guide, since true odds will never be allowed to be public knowledge.

in anycase. All the best with your business.

Jake

Jake, My "Big Business" days are over. I am now no different to you. I still make furniture because I can and people still want me to. The money making side of it doesnt matter anymore. I am "retired" by health and by choice.
Even if I took my premiums at the current rate, I would have forked out a bit over $16000 in the last forty years. $12000 would probably be more like it on average.
Both my mates are looking at over $30,000 and that is just to recover costs.
If I was unfortunate enough to have a customer seriously injured I would expect another couple of noughts on that.
If you have assets, you need protection. Even if you have done nothing wrong.
IMHO the only time you can be sure of getting money owed is when you have done something for a person and know that person has sold on your service and was paid by cheque made out in their own name. Other than that, you'll be fishing.
In furniture design, strength to weight ratio is still very important. Think large book case. All furniture has to be moved. Heavy stuff is a PITA. It stops things selling. Dining chairs, that have to be pushed in and out from the table, should not give you a hernia each time they are moved. Most furniture is selected by women because it is used by women, cleaned by women and, if possible, moved by women. One of the first things women notice is how light my chairs are. I then dump my oversized ex rugby torso on the seat and invite them to come sit on my lap. Again something I probably shouldnt discuss with a bloke like you. It sells chairs.

Originally Posted by rustynail

Even if I took my premiums at the current rate, I would have forked out a bit over $16000 in the last forty years. $12000 would probably be more like it on average.
Both my mates are looking at over $30,000 and that is just to recover costs.

ok…. sounds like the insurance blokes are stuffing up.
or…. insurance claims just so happen to have occurred in your group of friends. And the thousand/s of other insurers never have had a problem.
and/or…. you and your mates are more likely to cop it because you churn out more chairs….or… or… or. ..
or you made a mistake forking out $16000 (thats a LOT of money to me) unnecessarily.

In furniture design, strength to weight ratio is still very important. Think large book case. All furniture has to be moved. Heavy stuff is a PITA. It stops things selling. Dining chairs, that have to be pushed in and out from the table, should not give you a hernia each time they are moved. Most furniture is selected by women because it is used by women, cleaned by women and, if possible, moved by women. One of the first things women notice is how light my chairs are. I then dump my oversized ex rugby torso on the seat and invite them to come sit on my lap.

yep. But safety is everything isn't it. Because, I'm told, a suddenly breaking chair that causes a person to crash to ground is the worst possible thing to happen. Shorely a more important issue than the issue of how easy the piece is to move about. Shorely far far more important than trivial aesthetics. I mean, if a man crashes the ground and smashes their head, it doesn't matter how well insured I am, I will never be able to replace him to his family. So I should choose a timber that minimises THIS possibility. Shouldn't I ?

Again something I probably shouldnt discuss with a bloke like you. It sells chairs.

Bloke like me ?…..what da f*k is that sposed to mean.
You mean I should do my utmost to sell as many chairs as possible to benefit myself at the expense of safety ?

This stuff goes on and on and on and on and on.

All the best mate


feeeeeeeeeeeeeeear !

Originally Posted by apricotripper

ok…. sounds like the insurance blokes are stuffing up.
or…. insurance claims just so happen to have occurred in your group of friends. And the thousand/s of other insurers never have had a problem.
and/or…. you and your mates are more likely to cop it because you churn out more chairs….or… or… or. ..
or you made a mistake forking out $16000 (thats a LOT of money to me) unnecessarily.


yep. But safety is everything isn't it. Because, I'm told, a suddenly breaking chair that causes a person to crash to ground is the worst possible thing to happen. Shorely a more important issue than the issue of how easy the piece is to move about. Shorely far far more important than trivial aesthetics. I mean, if a man crashes the ground and smashes their head, it doesn't matter how well insured I am, I will never be able to replace him to his family. So I should choose a timber that minimises THIS possibility. Shouldn't I ?


Bloke like me ?…..what da f*k is that sposed to mean.
You mean I should do my utmost to sell as many chairs as possible to benefit myself at the expense of safety ?

This stuff goes on and on and on and on and on.

All the best mate


feeeeeeeeeeeeeeear !

I was referring to your fantasy.
A pack a day smoker spends $146000 over a period of 40 years.
Heavy furniture can do you plenty of damage. Backs just hate it.
Whether your furniture is well made or not doesn't stop people sueing.
Breakage is only one way a piece can cause injury.
In the case of a death, insurance doesn't bring the deceased back. But it does provide the means of paying the compensation claim without having to sell everything you own.
I remind you, I have only ever had one chair fail. And that was glue failure.
Our opinions on timber obviously vary. I can live with that.
Our opinions on the value of insurance also differ. I can live with that also.
All the best with your endeavours. I hope you never have to regret your decision.

This thread seems to be becoming an "ooh ah" thread, going around in ever decreasing circles until it disappears going ooh ah its dark in here.

Regards

Originally Posted by rustynail

Morning John, The thought of having sex with a strange drunken monkey does not appeal to me at all.
On a more serious note; Your comment about concealed felling shake would be appreciated, as I guess both you and I would have seen more timber in a week than most would see in a life time.

Outside of butt logs I've very rarely seen felling shakes, or at least invisible ones. Which is not to say they aren't there - because I know they must be.
Post each of these big cyclones though we've ran into a fair bit of compression failure at times, which is basicly the same thing but further up the log. Normally I'd expect shakes to be in the bottom, or in any area where a log has been subject to shock loading from say being felled across another log, or across a gully or similar that doesn't allow it to land in a fairly "soft" or at least "even" fashion along the length of the log. Big branches spearing into the ground directly in the line of fall are another known cause of it. Species with a low modulus of elasticity - such as cedar - are particularly susceptible. Basicly they're a lot more brittle when green then many species. Couple that with straight, open grain formation and it's why the stuff tends to break not bend.
Sometimes you'll be crosscutting seasoned boards and here the crack of them breaking, but not see the fault. Gotta be there somewhere though... just a matter of time before the split shows.

We had a high (maybe 0.3% - but thats way way higher then normal) percentage of returns in the cyclone salvage logs. Timber would appear as fine when sawn, no visible faults, but as the moisture level dropped splits that were previously not visible opened up. That kerfing article I linked to the other week pretty much explained the effect... because the split is there, even if at a size below what was visible to the naked eye it allowed for faster moisture loss and a differential moisture gradient that made the timber peel back away from the split like a cut finger opens up. A bit of an eye opener when a length of timber with F17A on it - and I'm the grader - comes back with a split in it 2 foot long a few months later. And thats in interlocked grain hardwoods.
We got around it by increasing our lead time on orders so that timber was properly graded at 20% MC (maximum moisture content that timber must be at to actually be officially graded) or less rather then our usual GOS is close enough system.

Interesting the comment about borers still working in the timber. I'd be interested to know some details on that. My gut tells me that H2 pressure treatment with pyrethrin is a bit of a fail - sapwood penetration is fine but "negligible penetration of heartwood using current commercial processes" means as soon as the timber is dressed the open surface is free for attack by anything that eats it. I had a little issue a while back with some Cairns Pencil Cedar that we had pressure treated, dried, dressed and it got wet again. Borers found it and resumed business as usual, and CPC is like icecream to borers. That's part of why I've resurrected the borax dip... it might leach out (eventually) but at least I can't plane it off.

Originally Posted by rustynail

I was referring to your fantasy.
A pack a day smoker spends $146000 over a period of 40 years.
Heavy furniture can do you plenty of damage. Backs just hate it.
Whether your furniture is well made or not doesn't stop people sueing.
Breakage is only one way a piece can cause injury.
In the case of a death, insurance doesn't bring the deceased back. But it does provide the means of paying the compensation claim without having to sell everything you own.
I remind you, I have only ever had one chair fail. And that was glue failure.
Our opinions on timber obviously vary. I can live with that.
Our opinions on the value of insurance also differ. I can live with that also.
All the best with your endeavours. I hope you never have to regret your decision.

Which fantasy, the one I have about playing rugby against a team of naked women ? …Uno what I do when I go to ground with the ball. I'd say stuff the rules and not release the ball. have them all pile on me at once for as long as possible.

What does smoking got to do with it ? I don't smoke. Did you smoke ? . Are you saying you wish you didn't smoke so that you saved $146000 ?

I agree furniture can be heavy. We were talking about chairs and danger odds. I'm saying it would be better to help avoid the crash more than compensating for it. That a better timber choice in that broken chair you were talking about would make a dramatic difference. And that a chair crashing to the floor suddenly killing someone is far more unpredictable and of concern than an aggravation of the back …. i.e. suggests a more honourable and wiser decision would be to use a denser timber for a chair, and just putting up with timber not being as pretty, and chair not being as easy to move around, and ultimately (because we are honest responsible people) face the consequential reduction in sales because we aren't following a tradition using a pretentious overrated material. We need to protect the people eh! ( Not me thats saying this,,,, this is where all this conversation points too)

Yep, breakage is only one way to cause injury.

Exactly about insurance not bringing them back. Thats why we need to ensure they don't go crashing to the ground by making sacrifices in timber choice.

I've never considered how many or how little failure you've had with your chairs. And if I was too, how could I believe you know…. great deal of people who have problems don't bother reporting. That just don't buy from you again. I dare say, especially after you yourself told me just how fragile chairs can be, that quite a few of your chairs failed. And the ones that haven't. Well why ? ….maybe nobody has been sitting in them for 30 years. Maybe most of them live indoors. Too many factors. But don't worry, I respect you still. I think your the bees knees.

ok. I hope you deal with any regrets you may have as well.

I love youuuuuuu.

feeeeeear

Originally Posted by John.G

Outside of butt logs I've very rarely seen felling shakes, or at least invisible ones. Which is not to say they aren't there - because I know they must be.
Post each of these big cyclones though we've ran into a fair bit of compression failure at times, which is basicly the same thing but further up the log. Normally I'd expect shakes to be in the bottom, or in any area where a log has been subject to shock loading from say being felled across another log, or across a gully or similar that doesn't allow it to land in a fairly "soft" or at least "even" fashion along the length of the log. Big branches spearing into the ground directly in the line of fall are another known cause of it. Species with a low modulus of elasticity - such as cedar - are particularly susceptible. Basicly they're a lot more brittle when green then many species. Couple that with straight, open grain formation and it's why the stuff tends to break not bend.
Sometimes you'll be crosscutting seasoned boards and here the crack of them breaking, but not see the fault. Gotta be there somewhere though... just a matter of time before the split shows.

We had a high (maybe 0.3% - but thats way way higher then normal) percentage of returns in the cyclone salvage logs. Timber would appear as fine when sawn, no visible faults, but as the moisture level dropped splits that were previously not visible opened up. That kerfing article I linked to the other week pretty much explained the effect... because the split is there, even if at a size below what was visible to the naked eye it allowed for faster moisture loss and a differential moisture gradient that made the timber peel back away from the split like a cut finger opens up. A bit of an eye opener when a length of timber with F17A on it - and I'm the grader - comes back with a split in it 2 foot long a few months later. And thats in interlocked grain hardwoods.
We got around it by increasing our lead time on orders so that timber was properly graded at 20% MC (maximum moisture content that timber must be at to actually be officially graded) or less rather then our usual GOS is close enough system.

Interesting the comment about borers still working in the timber. I'd be interested to know some details on that. My gut tells me that H2 pressure treatment with pyrethrin is a bit of a fail - sapwood penetration is fine but "negligible penetration of heartwood using current commercial processes" means as soon as the timber is dressed the open surface is free for attack by anything that eats it. I had a little issue a while back with some Cairns Pencil Cedar that we had pressure treated, dried, dressed and it got wet again. Borers found it and resumed business as usual, and CPC is like icecream to borers. That's part of why I've resurrected the borax dip... it might leach out (eventually) but at least I can't plane it off.

The borer that seems to give the most trouble is furniture beetle. Quite happy eating seasoned timber. In fact prefers it. Most oak chairs I get for repair have been stung. There is another little bugger, like lyctus but I dont know what it is. Leaves tiny holes and plenty of em. Ive never seen one, as they have long gone by the time I get to see the piece. I know it isnt lyctus because the dust is much courser. More like the furniture beetle dust.
I have got to the stage where there are only a few timbers I like to keep in long term storage. Over the years I have found so many of the surface treatments break down sooner or later. This is a real PITA when a shed is tight packed and you find the little barstarteds up the back like a bunch of randy teenages at the pictures, going for all they're worth.

I don't often reply on this section of the Board, but making chairs is without doubt a specialised venture. Just getting one right is hard enough. Too many angles and too much pressure on the joins. I thought about getting the bigger Domino machine but not for long. I have three imported chairs in various states of disrepair. It could be worse. Did I lean back on the chairs? A relevant question. A QC asking me the question in Court? I have no recollection.

A decent solid wood chair costs at least $800. Leave it to the experts and their insurance.

Chairs are consumables. Life-spans vary but the end result is the same. Failure.

I suggest someone taking a one-off job on chairs is inviting trouble.

So much of our lives revolve arround fear.

Fear is the salemans best friend, followed by uncertainty and doubt.

Yes much of the sales process of insurance revolves arround fear......but so does much of life.

If you are not affraid or real risks and hasards, you are very likly to have one of those risks or hazards come up and bite you.

As with all things there is reasonable and unreasonable fear.

Reasonable fear is recognising the very real prospect that something may go wrong......and with a reasonable likleyhood....it is reasonable to be affraid of crashing your car if you are driving too fast for the conditions.
It is also reasonable to be affraid of something that represents a moderate risk but a very high consequence.

Unreasonable fear, is the propect that something may go wrong hat has an extreemly low liklyhood of happening.
Such as the fear of being struck by a falling asteroid while sitting in your loungeroom.


What we have in much of what we do in business....particularly if we are competent operators and carefull about what we do.....is a moderate to low risk something may go wrong but incredbly high level of consequence.

Besause of the way society is these days, a realtivly modest bo bo can ruin your life or at least cost you a great deal of money.

Society has changed....30 or more years ago, there was more of a chance of all sorts of things going wrong.....but in general those things had less consequence....and this rule is across the board.

In the 50's 7 60s, if you where sexually promiscous....the worst you could expect was a dose of the clap....if you where lucky and it was gonerea, a jab of antibiotics in the bum and it would pass...wose case you got siphilis....which could be very much worse...but still not a death sentence if treated well.......these days there is aids.

In the 70's...and you where boy racer.... when a car got out of shape yu might end up in hospital....these days the cars go faster and when they get out of shape they can be going ver much faster with far more resious consequences.

the same follows in business.....everything is structured arround waiting for the situation to get out of hand and the imposing very large penalties.

The fear of being bankrupted by some sort of public liability issue is very real and very reasonable.

For many of us in business, we have no choice about carrying public liability insurance....either it will be a condition of a licence to do business or the customers will require it.
Those requirements too are driven by fear......we can argue about how reasonable that is.

cheers

Originally Posted by apricotripper

Which fantasy, the one I have about playing rugby against a team of naked women ? …Uno what I do when I go to ground with the ball. I'd say stuff the rules and not release the ball. have them all pile on me at once for as long as possible.

What does smoking got to do with it ? I don't smoke. Did you smoke ? . Are you saying you wish you didn't smoke so that you saved $146000 ?

I agree furniture can be heavy. We were talking about chairs and danger odds. I'm saying it would be better to help avoid the crash more than compensating for it. That a better timber choice in that broken chair you were talking about would make a dramatic difference. And that a chair crashing to the floor suddenly killing someone is far more unpredictable and of concern than an aggravation of the back …. i.e. suggests a more honourable and wiser decision would be to use a denser timber for a chair, and just putting up with timber not being as pretty, and chair not being as easy to move around, and ultimately (because we are honest responsible people) face the consequential reduction in sales because we aren't following a tradition using a pretentious overrated material. We need to protect the people eh! ( Not me thats saying this,,,, this is where all this conversation points too)

Yep, breakage is only one way to cause injury.

Exactly about insurance not bringing them back. Thats why we need to ensure they don't go crashing to the ground by making sacrifices in timber choice.

I've never considered how many or how little failure you've had with your chairs. And if I was too, how could I believe you know…. great deal of people who have problems don't bother reporting. That just don't buy from you again. I dare say, especially after you yourself told me just how fragile chairs can be, that quite a few of your chairs failed. And the ones that haven't. Well why ? ….maybe nobody has been sitting in them for 30 years. Maybe most of them live indoors. Too many factors. But don't worry, I respect you still. I think your the bees knees.

ok. I hope you deal with any regrets you may have as well.

I love youuuuuuu.

feeeeeear

I have this silly little thing about keeping in touch with past clients. There are several reasons for this; Firstly it keeps me on their radar. Secondly it keeps me informed of product performance. And last but not least, it shows I care.
Now that I have scaled back from export and wholesale, I am able to take the time to make the call.
I often make hardwood chairs. Clunkers I call them. To be honest, I would much prefer a Cedar chair any day.
Have a look at antique chairs. There are still a lot of 200 year old ones going about. It may not be the hardest timber in the world, but its got a lot of other qualities going for it.

Originally Posted by rustynail

I have this silly little thing about keeping in touch with past clients. There are several reasons for this; Firstly it keeps me on their radar. Secondly it keeps me informed of product performance. And last but not least, it shows I care.
..........

Good Morning Rustynail

FOURTHLY, you clients talk to their friends about your calls. Good marketing. Not quite the same as after-sale service from Myer or DJs or a host of others.

Fully agree with your comments about cedar - lots of cedar dining chairs from the 1850's still in daily use - earlier ones seem to be migrating into museums! I just like cedar.



Fair Winds

Graeme

Originally Posted by rustynail

I have this silly little thing about keeping in touch with past clients. There are several reasons for this; Firstly it keeps me on their radar. Secondly it keeps me informed of product performance. And last but not least, it shows I care.
Now that I have scaled back from export and wholesale, I am able to take the time to make the call.
I often make hardwood chairs. Clunkers I call them. To be honest, I would much prefer a Cedar chair any day.
Have a look at antique chairs. There are still a lot of 200 year old ones going about. It may not be the hardest timber in the world, but its got a lot of other qualities going for it.

I think thats all very good.

But I'm sorry, I still doubt you would know the state of all your chairs. The only way I would is if they were ALL in my possession.
because I would suspect...
…some clients would be dead. (negative thought sorry, but you mentioned your at the end of your career)
…some would be mates (and mates look after mates). mates keep quite about things like this, especially if you have interests in common. And cedar, traditional chairs etc would be deeply rooted in this. Dozerns of blokes would kiss one another like this and gang up (sniff sniff) on blokes LIKE ME who have a difference of opinion.
…some would be unreachable.
…someone may have even died as a result of failure in the chair, but its just too horrible for them to bring up.
…some would just say 'yes there fine' because they just want to have a talk and not bring up anything negative. As its always better to say something positive.
…some (as you mentioned wholesale and internationally) just really don't know themselves, because they distributed them again, and just say they haven't heard anything negative.

If you made just 50 chairs, I would guess this is possible, but you've implied you've made thousands. Sorry about my alarm bells about you feeling your accurate on just getting one glue line failure…but…uno what I mean ?

You've got a negative nickname for hardwood chairs. You know what my nickname is for cedar chairs……Pincushions. Because you have to be careful that you don't ding them up. And apparently, one has be careful you don't die from them when the back legs break suddenly due to some kind of blind, common felling shake. But I'm confused on that because apparently its a common flaw only when ones pushing the need for insurance……but isn't so common when ones trying to sell them or push their own product. (honesty ?)

I have had a look at antiques chairs a lot. I love them. I like windsor chairs the best, and there are, like the ones you push, lots floating about over 200years old as well, and their not made of cedar.

I've got a solution to that backleg problem ! ….put hardwood into those parts that will cause a sudden fall (and possible DEATH!). Typically legs. And put cedar into everything else. And then just start a crusade to convince the brigade of traditionalists (that combined try to kill off sales to outsiders) that staining the legs a cedar colour is OK, so it all looks perfect, because honesty is the best policy. Safety first. …… And you still will be able to pick the chair up with your dick because, not all the chair is hardwood. A compromise.

you must be starting to hate me now. Sorry. Don't worry, some bloke will come to your defence next time I display. Last time I spoke freely, a big heavyset (efen huge. looking like an exfootballer) on an angry mission dumped himself heavily onto one of my rockers like he was trying to kill something on the seat……heard a crack ….instant gratification on his face, like he got what he wanted. Walked off quickly. Brought back his mates and all walked past with smirks on their faces….one said ' strong chair eh'…… I didn't know what else to say but…'back to the drawing board'……but so keen were they to find failure they didn't consider what actually happened. The crappy makeshift deck under the chair, that I drag around with me, made the cracking sound. And the chair was fine.

Still think your the bees knees. Obviously you have an incredible knowledge. And am genuinely interested in this blind felling shake you were talking about…uno what timbers its likely to occur in, and wheather or not its applicable to me, because I still don't get how it could stay concealed with the techniques I use.

kindly
Jake

AlexS in the first response was spot on. I emailed them and enquired - as long as I fit the rules of Who I Am - it's all good. It was a fantastic lead.

So, many thanks to AlexS.

On another note, I wish to say the civil nature of some people on this thread is pretty bad. I've posted a few tongue in cheek responses that have been misconstrued since joining, and hopefully apologising when called out for it, but some of the responses here have been damned rude.

I thought I asked a reasonable question. Especially since there must be quite a number of people who are "more than amateur" and close to semi-pro....retirees, stay at home dads, new career, etc. Some of the responses were disrespectful of good knowledge.

If we want to attract more ladies all this trash talk must cease. Eliminate the agro and it would be a much better place.

Originally Posted by apricotripper

I think thats all very good.

But I'm sorry, I still doubt you would know the state of all your chairs. The only way I would is if they were ALL in my possession.
because I would suspect...
…some clients would be dead. (negative thought sorry, but you mentioned your at the end of your career)
…some would be mates (and mates look after mates). mates keep quite about things like this, especially if you have interests in common. And cedar, traditional chairs etc would be deeply rooted in this. Dozerns of blokes would kiss one another like this and gang up (sniff sniff) on blokes LIKE ME who have a difference of opinion.
…some would be unreachable.
…someone may have even died as a result of failure in the chair, but its just too horrible for them to bring up.
…some would just say 'yes there fine' because they just want to have a talk and not bring up anything negative. As its always better to say something positive.
…some (as you mentioned wholesale and internationally) just really don't know themselves, because they distributed them again, and just say they haven't heard anything negative.

If you made just 50 chairs, I would guess this is possible, but you've implied you've made thousands. Sorry about my alarm bells about you feeling your accurate on just getting one glue line failure…but…uno what I mean ?

You've got a negative nickname for hardwood chairs. You know what my nickname is for cedar chairs……Pincushions. Because you have to be careful that you don't ding them up. And apparently, one has be careful you don't die from them when the back legs break suddenly due to some kind of blind, common felling shake. But I'm confused on that because apparently its a common flaw only when ones pushing the need for insurance……but isn't so common when ones trying to sell them or push their own product. (honesty ?)

I have had a look at antiques chairs a lot. I love them. I like windsor chairs the best, and there are, like the ones you push, lots floating about over 200years old as well, and their not made of cedar.

I've got a solution to that backleg problem ! ….put hardwood into those parts that will cause a sudden fall (and possible DEATH!). Typically legs. And put cedar into everything else. And then just start a crusade to convince the brigade of traditionalists (that combined try to kill off sales to outsiders) that staining the legs a cedar colour is OK, so it all looks perfect, because honesty is the best policy. Safety first. …… And you still will be able to pick the chair up with your dick because, not all the chair is hardwood. A compromise.

you must be starting to hate me now. Sorry. Don't worry, some bloke will come to your defence next time I display. Last time I spoke freely, a big heavyset (efen huge. looking like an exfootballer) on an angry mission dumped himself heavily onto one of my rockers like he was trying to kill something on the seat……heard a crack ….instant gratification on his face, like he got what he wanted. Walked off quickly. Brought back his mates and all walked past with smirks on their faces….one said ' strong chair eh'…… I didn't know what else to say but…'back to the drawing board'……but so keen were they to find failure they didn't consider what actually happened. The crappy makeshift deck under the chair, that I drag around with me, made the cracking sound. And the chair was fine.

Still think your the bees knees. Obviously you have an incredible knowledge. And am genuinely interested in this blind felling shake you were talking about…uno what timbers its likely to occur in, and wheather or not its applicable to me, because I still don't get how it could stay concealed with the techniques I use.

kindly
Jake

Jake, I'll try to explain how it works. Though I have been in the timber industry for over forty years, I have not always made furniture. After completing two trades I went into timber milling and marketing. In later years, due to ill health, I returned to manufacture as I had missed the hands-on creative side of the trade. The years spent in marketing helped greatly.
The furniture I sent overseas was against order. All pieces were sold with a makers mark and certificate.
All certificate copies are held by me. Unless a piece has been resold, or the owner has moved on, I can find it in less than an hour. As for customer deaths, there have been two. Both gentlemen's wives are still with us, as of last Christmas. One is intending to send her furniture to her daughter in Cairns and contacted me for advise re shipping. The overseas stuff is a little harder to keep track of, but my contacts are good, so I still know where most of it is.
Where you got the idea I have made thousands of chairs I have absolutely no idea.
I dont hate you at all. Hate is a very strong word.
I agree there are a lot of old Windsors around and still quite serviceable. But they are a common candidate for repair.
I understand that they are not made from cedar. Its no good for steaming.
The chair of mine that failed wasnt just a cracked glue line. It was complete glue failure due to a faulty batch.
I never mix specie in any furniture. So the idea of hardwood back legs isnt an option.
Dont forget, I do use other timbers, not just cedar. I have made many hardwood chairs. I have two sitting beside me in my office as we speak. I have made the exact same design in cedar for a client who I see regularly.
Sabre legged ladder backs with drop in upholstered seats. Both continue to give good service. The cedar ones show less sign of timber movement at the joints.
Felling shake tends to occur more frequently in the softer timbers. Particularly those with less elasticity. As John G pointed out in his post. That is not to say it wont happen in others. It will. Ive seen it in spotted gum and it doesn't get much springier than that. Sugar maple would be one of the worst. As I said earlier, clear sap species
are the hardest to detect.
I take your point about your method of construction showing up hair line faults. When we do find a partial shake it would be nice to put the theory to the test.
Mate, I dont think I have said that the partial blind felling shake was a common fault. I did say, in relation to the chair that took out my uncle, it APPEARED to be a shake.
Any given piece of timber can have a fault of some description. Maybe obvious , maybe not. The use of the former is bad craftsman ship. The later is what you have insurance for.\
If you feel that I am not being honest, go discuss the matter with someone you feel you can trust.