Thread: Liability for small shops?

Poly should not be stripped by blow torch or any other burning method as the blue flame produced is burning HCN(gas) or more commonly known as Hydrogen Cyanide.

Originally Posted by rustynail

Poly should not be stripped by blow torch or any other burning method as the blue flame produced is burning HCN(gas) or more commonly known as Hydrogen Cyanide.

Does this apply to all poly finishes? ie. Are all polyurethane wood finishes produced using iso-cyanates?
While I could find plenty of info on both iso-cyanate and non iso-cyanate polyurethane, it didn't differentiate between poly finishes and other poly products. (Hence my email to MinWax, when I saw no reference to cyanide in their MSDS.)

Sort of a moot point for me - I put it on but rarely take it off except when sanding and would never take it off by burning.

Originally Posted by Hermit

I just did a quick re-read of the whole thread and found rustynail's reference. It's cyanide that he referred to, not arsenic.
Understandable. I also sometimes confuse the two.

apologies. Sometimes I write something different to what I'm thinking.

Originally Posted by apricotripper

apologies. Sometimes I write something different to what I'm thinking.

Not necessary. I do that all the time. And all said and done, poisons are poisons. I wouldn't like to ingest either.

(Still hoping that when/if MinWax reply, they can reassure me that theirs is a non iso-cyanate poly.)

Originally Posted by Hermit

I just did a quick re-read of the whole thread and found rustynail's reference. It's cyanide that he referred to, not arsenic. Understandable. I also sometimes confuse the two.

Like you, I just did a little more research on the subject, since I mainly use water-based wipe-on poly for my projects and don't want to poison anyone..........

Good Morning Hermit

Thank you for doing the above safety research and publishing it. Useful. Very useful.

I have just finished sanding down a lot of polyurethane - Estapol one pot oil based. I sanded because it would not burn off very easy - I tried and failed - lucky me! [high skirtings, 3 doors, architraves]

Way back in the 1960's when two-pack polyurethane first became available dad painted a cupboard, mantle piece and fire surround with a white two-pack paint which my [increasingly faulty] memory says was the first release of Estapol. It was white coloured, it was two pack and it was applied in the early sixties - I am not certain that it was a poly or that it was Estapol. It was an extremely hard very glossy finish that lasted for 30+ years. Therefore it might be possible that some coloured finishes also contain iso-cyanites.



Fair Winds

Graeme

Originally Posted by GraemeCook

Good Morning Hermit

Thank you for doing the above safety research and publishing it. Useful. Very useful.

I have just finished sanding down a lot of polyurethane - Estapol one pot oil based. I sanded because it would not burn off very easy - I tried and failed - lucky me! [high skirtings, 3 doors, architraves]

Way back in the 1960's when two-pack polyurethane first became available dad painted a cupboard, mantle piece and fire surround with a white two-pack paint which my [increasingly faulty] memory says was the first release of Estapol. It was white coloured, it was two pack and it was applied in the early sixties - I am not certain that it was a poly or that it was Estapol. It was an extremely hard very glossy finish that lasted for 30+ years. Therefore it might be possible that some coloured finishes also contain iso-cyanites.
Fair Winds
Graeme

Thanks for that Graeme. I only really set out to reassure apricotripper that poly didn't contain arsenic, but on learning from rustynail that it burns blue due to cyanide gas, my interest was piqued and I had to follow up on it.
From my reading, it appears that poly paints often if not always contain iso-cyanates. I don't know about Estapol. Perhaps I should have emailed them as well as MinWax. I occasionally use Estapol aerosol cans for fiddly jobs, so I might do so later, out of interest.
It appears that poly might not be quite as inert as I thought.
I'll let you'se know if I get a reply from MinWax. If I don't, I'll take it as confirmation that even their water-based WOP contains cyanide, because if it doesn't they're bound to be quick to reply and reassure me.

Most of the manufacturers seem to have a warning not to burn off. They don't say why though.
"Nothing like the smell of napalm in the morning."

Originally Posted by rustynail

Most of the manufacturers seem to have a warning not to burn off. They don't say why though.
"Nothing like the smell of napalm in the morning."

I just had a good read of the MinWax water-based WOP label and the label on a can of Estapol aerosol and neither of those carry this warning. Do you have anything on hand that carries that warning? I don't have any other brands here to check further.

"Nothing like the smell of iso-cyanates in the morning"

Edit: I just tried checking the MSDS on the Feast Watson site, but their link doesn't work for me. (Unknown file type.)

Originally Posted by Hermit

I just had a good read of the MinWax water-based WOP label and the label on a can of Estapol aerosol and neither of those carry this warning. Do you have anything on hand that carries that warning? I don't have any other brands here to check further.

"Nothing like the smell of iso-cyanates in the morning"

Edit: I just tried checking the MSDS on the Feast Watson site, but their link doesn't work for me. (Unknown file type.)

I don't use poly so I don't have containers on hand. I think all the cans now only have application and clean up instructions on them. Tech literature should have more info.

Originally Posted by rustynail

I don't use poly so I don't have containers on hand. I think all the cans now only have application and clean up instructions on them. Tech literature should have more info.

No worries. I only have the MinWax MSDS on hand, but there's no mention in that one. I'll wait for MinWax to get back to me.
You're probably right, I'm not trying to disprove what you said, only verify it, but I hope you're wrong.

Since apparently poly made using cyanide darkens over time in contact with air, I figure there's a good chance that modern poly finishes are made using the non iso-cyanate methods.
We shall see.....

N.B. I'm putting a coat of water-based WOP on a bowl in a few minutes, so I'll also put some on a scrap and then burn it off in a couple of days when it's fully hardened and see if it burns blue. Holding my breath of course - I already have emphysema, don't need cyanide poisoning as well.

Originally Posted by Hermit

I'll let you'se know if I get a reply from MinWax. If I don't, I'll take it as confirmation that even their water-based WOP contains cyanide, because if it doesn't they're bound to be quick to reply and reassure me.

Whilst you are waiting on an answer, Globak (one of the board sponsors) being the Australian importer has the following MSDS sheets on their website that may help you.

This one is about the wipe on waterbased poly.


Peter.


Edit: I see that I was researching and then posting at the same time.

Originally Posted by Sturdee

Whilst you are waiting on an answer, Globak (one of the board sponsors) being the Australian importer has the following MSDS sheets on their website that may help you.
This one is about the wipe on waterbased poly.
Peter.

Thanks Peter, but I beat you to the punch - downloaded a copy of that MSDS a couple of days ago. No mention of cyanide in it though.
I considered ringing Steve at Globak, (that's where I buy my poly), but figured he probably wouldn't know the exact chemical composition.

I just downloaded the Estapol interior gloss MSDS. Still no mention of cyanide/iso-cyanates:

Originally Posted by Estapol MSDS

Combustion products include: carbon dioxide (CO2), nitrogen oxides (NOx), other pyrolysis products typical of burning organic material.

They don't go into any more detail than this. I'll wait and see what MinWax have to say.

Bingo!

Originally Posted by Feast Watson MSDS

Hazards from combustion products:

Combustible liquid. On burning will emit toxic fumes, including those of hydrogen cyanide , oxides of carbon and oxides of nitrogen.

and

Originally Posted by Feast Watson MSDS

Isocyanate prepolymer - >60% -Dipropylene glycol dimethyl ether 111109-77-4 10-<30% -Ethylene glycol monobutyl ether acetate 112-07-2 1-<10% R20/21Hexamethylene diisocyanate 822-06-0 <0.12% R23 R36/37/38

R42/43

More than 60%! Wow!

Feast Watson is Cabots, (the MSDS says that FW is supplied by Cabots, owned by Dulux), so I wonder if the Cabots-labelled stuff is the same - also containing >60% iso-cyanates?
Or, since it's not listed in the Cabots MSDS, maybe Cabots sell the cheaper poisonous stuff to FW and keep the good stuff for themselves.

Originally Posted by Hermit

I just downloaded the Estapol interior gloss MSDS. Still no mention of cyanide/iso-cyanates:
They don't go into any more detail than this. I'll wait and see what MinWax have to say.

Bingo!

and

More than 60%! Wow!

Feast Watson is Cabots, (the MSDS says that FW is supplied by Cabots, owned by Dulux), so I wonder if the Cabots-labelled stuff is the same - also containing >60% iso-cyanates?
Or, since it's not listed in the Cabots MSDS, maybe Cabots sell the cheaper poisonous stuff to FW and keep the good stuff for themselves.

Good risk mitigation & very interesting reading MSDS and Tech Info on products. Makes you aware of just what is in some of these products; health risks from them in use and to the end user; from intentional/unintentional uses or unplanned events.

Have a thought for the firies .... who have to attend fires where these products are stored / used. Hope you guys store your flammables well and make it safe for you & them.