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Thread: Liability for small shops?
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20th April 2014, 07:03 PM #91
I just did a quick re-read of the whole thread and found rustynail's reference. It's cyanide that he referred to, not arsenic.
Understandable. I also sometimes confuse the two.
Like you, I just did a little more research on the subject, since I mainly use water-based wipe-on poly for my projects and don't want to poison anyone.
Many forms of polyurethane have traces of cyanide, (iso-cyanates), used in the production process, but I'm not sure if poly finishes are in that class. Iso-cyanates appear to be mainly used for poly foam, as you mentioned, and poly paint. (Never heard of poly paint before, incidentally.)
Apparently the cyanide causes the poly to darken over time from contact with the air, so I suspect (hope) that our poly might be one of the non iso-cyanate forms.
I just had a quick read of the MSDS for MinWax water-based WOP and no mention is made of iso-cyanates. (Below)
Still, for my own peace of mind, I emailed MinWax and put the question to them. Probably won't get an answer for a few days though.
Thank you to both yourself and rustynail for raising the subject. I like to know what I'm dealing with, and originally chose poly partly because of it's basically inert nature.
Sorry, Evan, but once the subject had been raised I had to follow it up.
Now back to the GP.....
EXPOSURE CONTROLS/PERSONAL PROTECTION Control Parameters -
Exposure Standards (Safe Work Australia)
2-Pyrrolidinone, 1-methyl-:
TWA: 25 ppm /103 mg/m3
STEL: 75 ppm / 309 mg/m3
Propanol, (2-methoxymethylethoxy)-:
TWA: 50 ppm /308 mg/m3
STEL: - ppm / - mg/m3
Ethanol, 2-(dimethylamino)-:
TWA: 2 ppm /7.4 mg/m3
STEL: 6 ppm / 22 mg/m3
Nuisance dust (total):
TWA: - ppm /10 mg/m3 (ACGIH)
STEL: - ppm / - mg/m3
Respirable dust:
TWA: - ppm /3 mg/m3 (ACGIH)
STEL: - ppm / - mg/m3
This coating may contain materials classified as nuisance particulates, which may be present at hazardous levels only during
sanding or abrading of the dried film.
Engineering Controls
Provide exhaust ventilation or other engineering controls to keep the airborne concentrations of dusts below occupational exposure standards.... Steve
-- Monkey see, monkey do --
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20th April 2014, 07:50 PM #92GOLD MEMBER
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Poly should not be stripped by blow torch or any other burning method as the blue flame produced is burning HCN(gas) or more commonly known as Hydrogen Cyanide.
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20th April 2014, 09:03 PM #93
Does this apply to all poly finishes? ie. Are all polyurethane wood finishes produced using iso-cyanates?
While I could find plenty of info on both iso-cyanate and non iso-cyanate polyurethane, it didn't differentiate between poly finishes and other poly products. (Hence my email to MinWax, when I saw no reference to cyanide in their MSDS.)
Sort of a moot point for me - I put it on but rarely take it off except when sanding and would never take it off by burning.... Steve
-- Monkey see, monkey do --
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20th April 2014, 10:13 PM #94
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20th April 2014, 10:30 PM #95
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21st April 2014, 04:06 PM #96
Good Morning Hermit
Thank you for doing the above safety research and publishing it. Useful. Very useful.
I have just finished sanding down a lot of polyurethane - Estapol one pot oil based. I sanded because it would not burn off very easy - I tried and failed - lucky me! [high skirtings, 3 doors, architraves]
Way back in the 1960's when two-pack polyurethane first became available dad painted a cupboard, mantle piece and fire surround with a white two-pack paint which my [increasingly faulty] memory says was the first release of Estapol. It was white coloured, it was two pack and it was applied in the early sixties - I am not certain that it was a poly or that it was Estapol. It was an extremely hard very glossy finish that lasted for 30+ years. Therefore it might be possible that some coloured finishes also contain iso-cyanites.
Fair Winds
Graeme
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21st April 2014, 05:38 PM #97
Thanks for that Graeme. I only really set out to reassure apricotripper that poly didn't contain arsenic, but on learning from rustynail that it burns blue due to cyanide gas, my interest was piqued and I had to follow up on it.
From my reading, it appears that poly paints often if not always contain iso-cyanates. I don't know about Estapol. Perhaps I should have emailed them as well as MinWax. I occasionally use Estapol aerosol cans for fiddly jobs, so I might do so later, out of interest.
It appears that poly might not be quite as inert as I thought.
I'll let you'se know if I get a reply from MinWax. If I don't, I'll take it as confirmation that even their water-based WOP contains cyanide, because if it doesn't they're bound to be quick to reply and reassure me.... Steve
-- Monkey see, monkey do --
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21st April 2014, 07:46 PM #98GOLD MEMBER
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Most of the manufacturers seem to have a warning not to burn off. They don't say why though.
"Nothing like the smell of napalm in the morning."
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21st April 2014, 08:18 PM #99
I just had a good read of the MinWax water-based WOP label and the label on a can of Estapol aerosol and neither of those carry this warning. Do you have anything on hand that carries that warning? I don't have any other brands here to check further.
"Nothing like the smell of iso-cyanates in the morning"
Edit: I just tried checking the MSDS on the Feast Watson site, but their link doesn't work for me. (Unknown file type.)... Steve
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21st April 2014, 11:11 PM #100GOLD MEMBER
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21st April 2014, 11:56 PM #101
No worries. I only have the MinWax MSDS on hand, but there's no mention in that one. I'll wait for MinWax to get back to me.
You're probably right, I'm not trying to disprove what you said, only verify it, but I hope you're wrong.
Since apparently poly made using cyanide darkens over time in contact with air, I figure there's a good chance that modern poly finishes are made using the non iso-cyanate methods.
We shall see.....
N.B. I'm putting a coat of water-based WOP on a bowl in a few minutes, so I'll also put some on a scrap and then burn it off in a couple of days when it's fully hardened and see if it burns blue. Holding my breath of course - I already have emphysema, don't need cyanide poisoning as well.... Steve
-- Monkey see, monkey do --
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22nd April 2014, 12:10 AM #102Deceased
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Whilst you are waiting on an answer, Globak (one of the board sponsors) being the Australian importer has the following MSDS sheets on their website that may help you.
This one is about the wipe on waterbased poly.
Peter.
Edit: I see that I was researching and then posting at the same time.
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22nd April 2014, 12:15 AM #103... Steve
-- Monkey see, monkey do --
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22nd April 2014, 02:11 AM #104
I just downloaded the Estapol interior gloss MSDS. Still no mention of cyanide/iso-cyanates:
They don't go into any more detail than this. I'll wait and see what MinWax have to say.Originally Posted by Estapol MSDS
Bingo!
Originally Posted by Feast Watson MSDS
Originally Posted by Feast Watson MSDS
Feast Watson is Cabots, (the MSDS says that FW is supplied by Cabots, owned by Dulux), so I wonder if the Cabots-labelled stuff is the same - also containing >60% iso-cyanates?
Or, since it's not listed in the Cabots MSDS, maybe Cabots sell the cheaper poisonous stuff to FW and keep the good stuff for themselves.... Steve
-- Monkey see, monkey do --
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22nd April 2014, 08:07 AM #105
Have a thought for the firies....
Good risk mitigation & very interesting reading MSDS and Tech Info on products. Makes you aware of just what is in some of these products; health risks from them in use and to the end user; from intentional/unintentional uses or unplanned events.
Have a thought for the firies .... who have to attend fires where these products are stored / used. Hope you guys store your flammables well and make it safe for you & them.
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