Thread: Liability for small shops?

Originally Posted by rustynail

There is much more could be said,but for fear of upsetting Sturdee,yet again,I'll leave it for another day.

Actually this is of interest to many who uses the various finishes, and I even contributed to this part, so I won't get too upset.

But my main concern is not so much the things discussed but that when the thread changes its main direction it would always be worth starting a new thread so that others may benefit and future searches will readily find the details.

Too often worthy information is locked up under a non related thread heading and is lost for future reference. Hence my objection to highjacking.


Peter.

Originally Posted by Sturdee

Actually this is of interest to many who uses the various finishes, and I even contributed to this part, so I won't get too upset.

But my main concern is not so much the things discussed but that when the thread changes its main direction it would always be worth starting a new thread so that others may benefit and future searches will readily find the details.

Too often worthy information is locked up under a non related thread heading and is lost for future reference. Hence my objection to highjacking.

Peter.

I agree wholeheartedly Peter. I've already reprimanded myself.
This sort of took on a life of it's own. I spent some time last night wondering how I could move this part of the thread to a new one, but it was too late. I could move my posts, but not the others. I don't want to load extra work onto the mods, either. They have more than enough to do already.
A shame, because as you say, this info will be lost under an unrelated heading, meaning I pretty much wasted my time doing all of the research over the last few days.
Also, I'm sure that Evan won't be too happy with me.

Originally Posted by Hermit

I agree wholeheartedly Peter. I've already reprimanded myself.
This sort of took on a life of it's own. I spent some time last night wondering how I could move this part of the thread to a new one, but it was too late. I could move my posts, but not the others. I don't want to load extra work onto the mods, either. They have more than enough to do already.
A shame, because as you say, this info will be lost under an unrelated heading, meaning I pretty much wasted my time doing all of the research over the last few days.
Also, I'm sure that Evan won't be too happy with me.

It could be done ... a lot of copy and past (sorry further hi-jacking here Evan)

You could do one long multi quote then copy and paste into a new thread of lots of little ones


Dave the turning cowboy

turning wood into art

Originally Posted by DaveTTC

It could be done ... a lot of copy and past (sorry further hi-jacking here Evan)
You could do one long multi quote then copy and paste into a new thread of lots of little ones
Dave the turning cowboy
turning wood into art

Yeah. I think it's probably worth the effort. I might try to find the time tonight, and put together a new thread on the subject.
Unfortunately, I can't delete these posts from this thread to clean it up though - only the ones I've personally made in the last 24 hours.

Originally Posted by Sturdee

Actually this is of interest to many who uses the various finishes, and I even contributed to this part, so I won't get too upset.

But my main concern is not so much the things discussed but that when the thread changes its main direction it would always be worth starting a new thread so that others may benefit and future searches will readily find the details.

Too often worthy information is locked up under a non related thread heading and is lost for future reference. Hence my objection to highjacking.


Peter.

All what has been discussed in this thread is topic related . Just because some part may be of less interest to you than another doesnt necessarily make it a highjack. To remove certain posts and place them in a separate thread leaves them subject to lack of context.
It costs nothing to read. If you dont like what you read, read something else. There is no need to accuse people or degrade.

Originally Posted by Hermit

Yeah. I think it's probably worth the effort. I might try to find the time tonight, and put together a new thread on the subject.
Unfortunately, I can't delete these posts from this thread to clean it up though - only the ones I've personally made in the last 24 hours.

If you do can you post a link to the new thread back here. That way it will be easy for me to find and I won't overlook it


Dave the turning cowboy

turning wood into art

Originally Posted by DaveTTC

If you do can you post a link to the new thread back here. That way it will be easy for me to find and I won't overlook it
Dave the turning cowboy
turning wood into art

No worries Dave. Will do.

The new thread on 'Cyanide in polyurethane finishes' is here, in the 'Safety' section:

https://www.woodworkforums.com/f67/cyanide-polyurethane-finishes-184090

There was a company down here in Hobart who specialised in cots.
They were going "great guns".
Until a tot died in one of their cots, apparently due to an unforseeable design flaw.
They went out of business immediately.
A real bummer for everyone concerned.
Gotta hate the litigious times we live in.

Originally Posted by ian

I know it will impact your bottom line ...

Doesn't matter if it's your design or someone else's, if you make something and sell it, you are liable for faults and consequent foreseeable injuries. Maybe not 100% liable, but liable nonetheless to some extent.
"foreseeable" is your only possible out -- but do you have the financial resources defend a claim?

take out insurance.

as rustynail said, the annual premium is not that much

also
As a general guideline, the ATO will allow a deduction for insurance premiums if it can be shown that the insurance relates to earning assessable income.

so even more sensible to insure your buisiness for liability.

just my 2 cents worth.

IMO…..It would make absolute sense to take out insurance if ball park odds were at least presented to begin with from which one can then alter ruffly based on facts related to there own lives to show a possibility of occurrence in your lifetime. But none of thats given.

...is it 1 in 500 woodworkers that get into trouble with their chair business in there working lives.
…or is it…..1 in 50000000 woodworkers that get into trouble.
???

nobody really knows here. its complete guesswork thats made to sound reasonable with words of wisdom describing what has happened before which provokes fear as if its a common place thing.

Population is not being accounted for with heresy. Its as though we all react, as those all these disasters are happening in just a small town. Not a world of millions of people.

I would be willing to be agreeable with getting insurance if I was allowed to form an opinion myself on statistics that have been thoroughly explored. Else I think ones just following the crowd blindy. or forced to. I'm forced to because of the rules.

Its a common thing anyway in most things I think, and won't be changed, so suppose is not really worth talking about.

You could look at it from the premium & potential payout viewpoint.

A client or guest of your client suffers a significant injury and their "no win no pay" lawyers negotiate a quite modest settlement of say $200k. VWA premiums are $215 for $20M Public & Product Liability, so a minimum of 1000 insured to cover one modest claim. How many professional or non-professional woodworkers have insurance? How big is the insurance premium pool? How often are claims made? What is the size of the typical settlement? All good questions that the insurance company actuarys have calculated to arrive at a premium.

How many wood workers could cover a $200K settlement plus legal fees? Not many.

$215 for $20M cover is cheap, so the risk is obviously low.

Personally I look at it as - for about the cost of a pot of beer per week you can sleep far better knowing you have some financial protection and a specialist legal team to negotiate on your behalf should things go pear shaped.

fair enough. I've got insurance. I'm not allowed to display unless I have it. I understand one has to go with the flow.

But… I still don't agree with it, if I let myself think objectively about it.

Originally Posted by Mobyturns

$215 for $20M cover is cheap, so the risk is obviously low.

I think this is the most important issue. Your odds.

Obviously low. More like extremely low. winning lotto low. But thats the problem with the conversation, there's no solid facts about it.

Personally I look at it as - for about the cost of a pot of beer per week you can sleep far better knowing you have some financial protection and a specialist legal team to negotiate on your behalf should things go pear shaped.

The point you make about it costing very little a week actually pushes the odds even higher. Because as I see it, insurances companies are business that entirely revolve around statistics. Not risk takers. Sensible pragmatic approach. If the stats say something is risky for them, and nobody but them know about it, they won't increase their premiums proportionally. They'll give themselves plenty to ensure they always win.

So the lower the premiums go, the higher the odds still. A pot of beer of insurance a week is a bet on obscenely high odds. Its a false security.

If one is concerned about the well fair of others….being decent,,,, and honourable….. wouldn't it be far better to put that money towards something that you know, with a near 100% certainty will benefit people in the present. Put it towards say Oxfam, or a refugee agency. Maybe I should put up a picture of a little girl in a refugee camp that we are failing to help because we choose to make ourselves feel good about the extreme odds of not being able to cover extremely unlikely injury to just one person in our lifetime.

ie.
With that 16grand (or whatever Rustynail mentioned he'd pay in premiums over his lifetime) save and jump start the lives of possibly hundreds FOR SHORE.

or

dump the money unnecessarily into a system thats based on fear to cover our own , motivated by guilt trips because its important to dismiss that the odds are astronomical, because we look bad if we don't too the world or whatever the other unrelated motivations are.

If you think about, there is a LOT stopping a good night sleep. Certainly shouldn't be something related to extreme odds.

I know its deep stuff. Its just an opinion. Hope that doesn't confront too much. hope you have a good day.

The thing about statistics and probability is that they cannot predict what will happen. All they can tell you is what has happened in the past.

It all comes down to utility. If you were rich then having to fork out $200k would make you whinge a bit but it wouldn't destroy you. If it happened to me, I would be devastated. When you start talking about odds, it only really helps an insurer work out how much they should charge for a premium. For the individual that the thing happens to, it doesn't matter whether it is 1 in 10 or 1 in a million. You're either unlucky, or extremely unlucky. Either way, you are still knackered.

When my old man ran a little 4WD tour business a few years ago, one of his first customers was an overweight lady who was writing a holiday article. He took her out to a rainforest walk and on the way back, she tripped over and fractured her ankle. He called for an ambulance and just before it arrived, she had a heart attack. Fortunately for him, she was one of those rare people who takes responsibility for her own clumsiness and declined to sue him, which she was probably entitled to do. He had no public liability insurance and would have been screwed if she had. He went and got a policy the next day. Nobody thinks it will happen to them.

I think when it comes to insurance, the only question you have to ask is "if it happened to me, could I survive it". Putting your faith in knowing the odds is no help. The odds of a horse winning a race are public knowledge, but it has little effect on the outcome. Betting with the odds is no guarantee that you will not lose your money.