Thread: Lie Nielsen 10 1/4, Block Rebate or Veritas Jack Rebate? Or none?

Hi Dom

I think I would steer you towards a Block rebate plane as being the most versatile addition to your existing kit.

Whether you really need the plane will depend on how you cut the mortices for your timber frame. Accurate mortices should translate to easy to cut tenons.

I can't comment on either one specifically, but I can comment on the "none" part.

After several years of woodworking, I have never found myself needing this style plane. I've never even really considered it. A 1" shoulder plane (I use an HNT Gordon and love it) has always been sufficient. I understand why you want a wider plane for this job, don't get me wrong, but I still believe that a more "standard" sized shoulder plane will do the job to the appropriate degree necessary for timber framing, and you'll then have a much more useful tool that you will use more frequently, and not another funny one that's just waiting for the next "perfect tool" moment.

And I would be remiss not to give this part of my schpeel... Don't forget that Stanley made (correction: patented) a similar plane, the number 10. They are reasonably priced in good condition, and there are a million of them out there that are just begging to be put back to use. Just sayin...

Sorry to always be the "you don't really need that" guy. It's just that I've been heading in that direction for a while and I'm way happier for it. Don't worry... I still have way too many tools. One of these days I'll come up with some good reasons to give you to buy one .

Good luck either way.

Cheers,
Luke

Damn it Luke haha. I already have a large Veritas shoulder plane and have used this to clean up tenons in the past, however I recall thinking a wider blade would have been handy. Also I usually have the shoulder set up nice and tight and with a small D.O.C. for paring the actual end-grain shoulders. But you are right that it would likely do the job fine. I could use the 1" shoulder plane after initially cleaning up with a chisel, and then smooth the rest of the tenon with a regular bench plane (tenons will be up to 150x240mm.

In my head, I thought the 10 1/4 would later be useful for cleaning up / paring mid-size tenons like those on table aprons as well as large breadboard tenons for table-tops etc. But maybe I'm inventing a need to justify buying this plane for the infrequent or even one-time use during the timber-frame build. If the plane would be a useful tool for furniture size applications then I could justify it, but if not then I'll probably get through this project without it. The thing I hate most is when I get through a large project without a tool that would have made life a lot easier / better only to buy it for some other, lesser, reason down the track and think "man I should have just bought this when I initially needed it!".

So am I to assume that nobody finds a rebate plane wider than 1" very useful in furniture making applications?

Luke, next you'll be telling me that I shouldn't buy that bronze Lie Nielsen No.4 with 50 degree frog I have been lusting after (really want to try a bevel-down smoother). I do get you regarding cutting-down on tools, buying more is an insatiable hunger with only fleeting joy; while actually making things and really using the tools you have being the only real source of enduring happiness.

Cheers,

Dom

I think I'd probably be looking to use my #78 (or a record 778) for this job. It's a rugged plane I've found useful on a number of occasions, it doesn't just sit on the shelf.

Hi Dom

the tool you really need for your timber framing project is a chain morticer to make short work of cutting the mortices.
But you have already reported how expensive they are.

I'm not sure how you are intending to cut your tenons.
The circular saw and guide rail will make short work of the shoulders and I trust myself enough with a hand saw that is how I would cut the cheeks, aiming for an off the saw fit.

but if you are thinking to cut the tenons by using the circular saw to cut a series of kerfs and then chiseling out the waste, I think your framing chisel will be fine. But if the tool acquisition bug is really biting, then you could consider a wide (1-1/2") paring chisel -- though for timber framing your existing framing chisel (a Barr?) should be sufficient. Note that Robert Sorby make two 2" wide framing chisels -- one with a bevel edge the other without.

I shouldn't feed your bug , but the other option for smoothing really big tenon cheeks is a slick -- the one Lee Valley sells has a 3-3/8" wide blade -- that's 85 mm



Lastly
back to the rebate block plane option.
I have one -- acquired during my "I can afford it so why not" phase.
I've used it two or three times when working against a vertical edge when I wanted a blade wider than my 1" shoulder plane. I've also used it to pare the cheeks of large furniture tenons.
It will undoubtedly work for what you want to do -- and work better than a #10-1/4 rebate plane.
The Stanley Rebate plane was intended for cutting rebates in door and window frames, so is excellent when cutting with the grain, but less useful across the grain. AND you have the Veritas skew rebate for cross grain work.


and a final tip / comment
timber framing is like furniture making but not the same. With furniture you are typically relying on glue to hold a joint together so tight tolerances are a must. In timber framing, joints are typically not glued and are held together with thumb sized wooden pegs. Accordingly a little "slop" between the tenon and its mortice is expected and allowed for in the sizes selected for the framing members and the joints.

Thanks Ian,

Yeah I was planning on using the many kerfs method as sawing a 160mm deep 240mm wide tenon in any reasonable time frame and square/true is beyond my skills and tool set at the moment.

I hear you regarding fit of the joints but from what I have researched a tight fit is still very preferable to both add rigidity to the joint as well as minimise moisture ingress etc. Good timber framing joints appear just (or very nearly) as tight and precise as those for furniture.

The 10 1/4 is overwhelmingly the top recommendation for a timber framing plane based on my readings on various timber framing forums, but i wasn't sure if its utility ends there.

I agree that the mortises are likely to be my #1 issue. At this stage I plan to use a drill and 1/4" undersize auger bit followed by chisels.

Yeah I have a 1.5" barr framing chisel. I considered a slick but that most certainly is a one trick pony and costs near enough to a bench rebbate plane.

Originally Posted by DomAU

Luke, next you'll be telling me that I shouldn't buy that bronze Lie Nielsen No.4 with 50 degree frog I have been lusting after (really want to try a bevel-down smoother). I do get you regarding cutting-down on tools, buying more is an insatiable hunger with only fleeting joy; while actually making things and really using the tools you have being the only real source of enduring happiness.

Amen . Having said that, I do have a soft spot for bronze planes... After spending two years in Brisbane with an open air shop, anything that can be done to prevent rust from my sweaty hands is a plus. A 50 degree frog could be nice to have for Aussie woods as well. I looked seriously at the same plane you're talking about (actually a 4 1/2). Ultimately, however, I decided to go with - you guessed it - a Stanley. I think that the difference between 45 and 60 degrees (like HNT Gordon) is noticeable, but in my experience, five degrees doesn't do much when the blade is nice and sharp. That is, of course, just my experience though. Others may really like the "York Pitch".

I can't comment on the utility of a shoulder plane larger than 1". That's getting pretty large. I would be good for the kind of work you're looking at doing (timber framing), but not much use on the average furniture project, unless you were really into Arts and Crafts stuff with lots of through tenons and the like.

Originally Posted by DomAU

Yeah I was planning on using the many kerfs method as sawing a 160mm deep 240mm wide tenon in any reasonable time frame and square/true is beyond my skills and tool set at the moment.

I hear you regarding fit of the joints but from what I have researched a tight fit is still very preferable to both add rigidity to the joint as well as minimise moisture ingress etc. Good timber framing joints appear just (or very nearly) as tight and precise as those for furniture.

in that case can I suggest that after you cut each mortice, you make up a jig that matches the mortice -- scraps and nails or screws will be fine. Use the jig to test fit the tenon.

Originally Posted by DomAU

I agree that the mortises are likely to be my #1 issue. At this stage I plan to use a drill and 1/4" undersize auger bit followed by chisels.

if you're using a hand brace, I agree with the auger, but recommend one the same size as the mortice, or drill as close as you can to the edges of the mortice.

If you're using a power drill, my suggestion would be to use a fostner bit and speed bore.
Using the forstner bit, drill a series of overlapping holes to establish the outside edges of the mortice. These holes only need to be around 25mm deep and can be referenced off an off-set center line.
switch to a speed bore bit about 1/2" smaller than the forstner and hog out the bulk of the waste.
switch back to the forstner and extend the initial holes to the depth required.

You should only need to pare a small amount from the walls of the mortice and approximately square up the corners.

Originally Posted by Fuzzie

I think I'd probably be looking to use my #78 (or a record 778) for this job. It's a rugged plane I've found useful on a number of occasions, it doesn't just sit on the shelf.

+1 on the #78


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Originally Posted by NeilS

+1 on the #78


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Thanks guys, I missed the recommendation of the 78 before. That looks very similar to my Veritas skew rebate planes, which i did consider but thought the 1 3/8" cutting width may be a little narrow to be optimal for the framing application.

I probably will stick with those for now. I'll pick up the LN 10 1/4 if i feel the need once I've started and if I have money burning a hole in my pocket.

Dom
I'm going to jump onto one of my hobby horses ....

You really need to resolve your mortice cutting technique and accuracy before you get too fussed with your tenon making technique. Your project will be a major PITA if you can't create consistent mortices that are 90 degrees to the face.

Now I maybe confusing you with another forumite, but I thought you had recently bought a western saw capable of making a 160 mm deep rip cut and again IIRC you are pretty proficient at cutting dovetails.

I strongly suggest you PLAN of creating your tenons off the saw.

Originally Posted by ian

Dom
I'm going to jump onto one of my hobby horses ....

You really need to resolve your mortice cutting technique and accuracy before you get too fussed with your tenon making technique. Your project will be a major PITA if you can't create consistent mortices that are 90 degrees to the face.

Now I maybe confusing you with another forumite, but I thought you had recently bought a western saw capable of making a 160 mm deep rip cut and again IIRC you are pretty proficient at cutting dovetails.

I strongly suggest you PLAN of creating your tenons off the saw.

Hi Ian,

Agreed. The mortises may prove challenging. Drilling 90deg will in itself be difficult. Hence i was planning to drill undersize to allow for some miss-alignment and then get to it with a 12mm mortise chisel for the corners and 38mm framing chisel for the cheeks. Checking with a square along the way. Probably will take a while and be a bit of work though. Alternatively i could buy a festool drill guide and corded drill do make the holes vertical but that again is a pretty specific investment that maybe i could get away without.

It'll have to work out somehow. To make matters worse the garage tapers from front to rear on one side so I'll need to plane some post faces by a few degrees...

My largest hand saw is a 16" lie nielsen with 100mm depth. Otherwise i have a japanese ryoba. Not too confident in cutting that large super accurately tbh.

One of the most useful tools I own is the Lie-Nielsen Rabbet block plane. I bought this instead of a dedicated shoulder plane and I find it to be much more useful. YMMV.

Just to tie this off I couldn't decide between the block or bench rebate planes or if I even need either, so I bought both . Along with a 1/2" corner chisel from LN.

20170921_154046.jpg

At the bare minimum they'll be nice to look at