Thread: Lie Nielsen Bronze No.4

I don't have a Lie Nielsen plane so can not comment on their performance. I do have a couple of older Stanley bevel down planes and find that they perform just as well as my bevel up planes on straight grains. The main difference is when the grain is highly figured, this is when the bevel up planes perform better with a nicer finish.

Well if your BU plane is at 50deg, and you have a 60deg cap iron on your BD plane, then it's no surprise that the cap iron is harder to push than the other. Also, how wide is the BU plane? Less blade width means less resistance. I wouldn't put too much stock in push resistance.

Using the cap iron (meaning having it close enough to come into play, which you do) is kind of an advanced (for lack of a better word) technique with a BD plane. It's not surprising that you've got a few hiccups. I'm willing to bet it's associated with that.

A couple of questions... Is your shaving coming out straight, is it curling, or is it making an accordion shape? It should be straight. Either of the others are not what you should expect to see with a properly adjusted cap iron.

When you remove the cap iron after planing, do you have a bunch of dust and shaving fragments between the iron and the cap iron? If so, this is the result of poor contact between the two irons and should be addressed. There are a number of ways to do this.

My guess is that your cap iron is either too close, it is not polished enough, or it is not making good enough contact with the blade.

I would suggest trying the following, one by one, in the following order:

1. If the mouth is tight, that's unnecessary. You can open it up as much as you want. The mouth on my smoother is like 3-4mm open. Some will argue this, but it has been my experience that using the cap iron negates the need for a tight mouth. Some who keep a tight mouth and don't use the cap iron have had a lifetime of good results.

2. Flatten the contact surface of your cap iron, and polish it to 8000. This has to be just as dead flat and polished as the plane iron back it is contacting.

3. Re polish your cap iron at the leading edge where it contacts te shaving. Dot worry too much about the angle. I just take mine and pull it along the stone in a rolling motion so that it blunts it. You want to roll it in such a way that it creates a burr on the contact side of the cap iron, and you want to LEAVE that burr. It helps with the contact surface. Do this to 8000 grit as well. Always polish every surface to your highest honing grit. I literally did this on a new Hock cap iron for my Stanley like a week ago. There will be naysayers. They are fake news.

4. If that doesn't work, sell it, buy a Stanley, and spend the rest on wood.

Now here's something you may want to consider... What are you planing? The cap iron is not intended to create a smoother surface, generally speaking, but to reduce tear out on reversing or high angle grain surfaces. If you're planing clear pine with the grain with a 50 deg bed angle, you don't need on use the cap iron. That's kind of the point of the higher pitch. Try backing it off to a mm or so (I.e. Completely disengaging it) and seeing what happens. That plane should do pretty well for tear out on its own. Try a few strokes against the grain. That's the real test. I can plane figured wood against the grain with a cap iron with a damn nice surface to show for it.

Also, I should mention that 0.2mm sounds too close. I'm more used to seeing numbers like 0.4mm. I know you said it's a guess though. I basically just put mine about as close as I can and roll with it.

And finally, let us not forget that sharp tr--ps all (expletive censored). If you have any doubt about your sharpening, look into that. I was nearly three years deep before I finally felt like I had achieved it.

Good luck,
Luke

Thanks Luke.

I didn't realise the angle of the cap iron leading edge makes as much difference as the cutting angle. Interesting.

The BU plane has a wider blade.

My shavings are coming out straight or rolled, seemingly changing with stroke speed.

I did hone the mating surface of the cap iron and don't notice any gap but may revisit this.

I'll polish the cap leading edge to 8000 as you suggest.

Pretty confident with my sharpening but I guess you don't know what you don't know and there's probably always room for improvement. Every blade leaves baby smooth skin behind after 1 pass when doing the shaving test on my arm but that isn't too difficult so maybe they could be sharper.

Thanks mate. I'll try what you suggest and play with it some more. Racing all day today though.

Dom,

I should've asked this before, but it didn't occur to me, so...

Given that you have a 50deg setup on your bevel up smoother, what niche in your planing arsenal are you hoping to fill with a 50deg bevel down smoother? What are you hoping to gain with the new one that the other one leaves you lacking?

Knowing that may help us make setup suggestions.

Cheers,
Luke

Originally Posted by Luke Maddux

Dom,

I should've asked this before, but it didn't occur to me, so...

Given that you have a 50deg setup on your bevel up smoother, what niche in your planing arsenal are you hoping to fill with a 50deg bevel down smoother? What are you hoping to gain with the new one that the other one leaves you lacking?

Knowing that may help us make setup suggestions.

Cheers,
Luke

Honestly i just wanted to try bevel down. Initially I was thinking of going with 45deg and only using it on timber not prone to tearout but then figured if I loved using bd the 50deg frog would cover most uses for a slight compromise in effort etc.

I normally use the BU with 62deg but wanted to compare apples. I have multiple blades for the BU smoother.

I thought i could reserve thr BD for final smoothing of important pieces if I could get it to work as well as the BU and keep it razer sharp as it would 't be used constantly like the BU.

Also the shavings seem to be rolling forward for light cuts (just tried before heading out to race) . I assume this could be the chipbreaker too close or too steep on the leading edge?

Luke, that was a fantastic reply!

Dom, to add a bit ...

I add a roughly 50 degree secondary bevel to the chipbreaker. Anything between 45- and 60 should be fine.

The lower the frog, the better as far as I am concerned. A lower cutting angle - using the chipbreaker! - the less scraping one does, and the better the resulting surface. Having said this, I get reflective surfaces off a 62 degrees cutting angle on a BU plane. Both my LN #3 and #4 1/2 use 45 degree frogs. Each was tried with a 55 degree frog (sans chipbreaker), and neither could hold a candle to a BUS. Eventually both ended up with the 45 degree frog, and, using the chipbreaker, they can out perform the BUS (planing into the grain is a fact of life when smoothing book-matched panels). My Veritas Custom #3 has a 42 degree frog, and the Custom #7 has a 40 degree frog.

The lower the frog angle, the higher the secondary bevel at the leading edge of the chipbreaker, or you may need to move the chipbreaker a tad closer. Something in the region of 0.3 - 0.4mm seems to suit me for most set ups on a smoother. You can get away with 0.5mm if taking very thick shavings.

Closing up the chipbreaker places more emphasis on the way it mates with the back of the blade. Ensure the blade is flat. I advise against using the Ruler Trick here. Chris Schwarz had a suggestion of turning a hook with a scraper burnisher under the chipbreaker. This works. He also recommended using a depth stop to set the distance. Ignore that idea. You will soon learn to get it.

Note that the mouth MUST be opened when using the chipbreaker, otherwise there will not be space for the shaving to exit, and the escapement will jam up.

The correct distance is when the shaving straightens. Curly is too far away, and accordian is too close (besides, the plane then becomes harder to push). Note that very fine shavings may not have the strength to hold up, and appear less straight as a result.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Thanks Luke and Derek,

Guess I should have gone with the 45 degree frog then Derek, teaches me not to ask the question before pulling the trigger.

I'll play around some more when I get some time. I did quickly try both planes on some Blackwood with a little figure and some sapwood. I still have the mouth closed up a bit and the chipbreaker close to the blade edge. Here is what the shavings look like; not sure if anyone can divine anything from these (about 0.0014" on the mic so perhaps a little on the thick side);
20170813_171839 copy.jpg

I got some tear out with this plane, however going over the same area with the 52deg Veritas BU I had zero tear out. Seems odd. Almost the opposite of what I'd expect.

20170813_171735 copy.jpg

Dom

While the chipbreaker is ultimately superior to a high cutting angle, it takes a good deal of practice to get right. Praising the chipbreaker does not change the fact that results from a high cutting angle can be superb, whether from a BU plane such as the BUS or a BD such as a HNT Gordon smoother.

I purchased my LN #3 with a 55 degree frog - this was around 2010/1, before I learned about the chipbreaker. It then languished on the shelf as it was not high enough for WA timber. Later, when I began to use the chipbreaker I purchased a 50 degree frog. It works well, however the lower 45 degree can work better. 50 degrees is a pretty good compromise frog.

Incidentally, I still have the 55- and 50-degree frogs for the LN if anyone is interested. Happy to make a trade for something.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by derekcohen

Dom

While the chipbreaker is ultimately superior to a high cutting angle, it takes a good deal of practice to get right. Praising the chipbreaker does not change the fact that results from a high cutting angle can be superb, whether from a BU plane such as the BUS or a BD such as a HNT Gordon smoother.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I just need to figure out why my BU at a 52deg cutting angle is performing better for tear out and smoothness than the BD at 50deg with chipbreaker. I can only assume it's a combination of blade sharpness and the closed up mouth of the BU helping more than the chipbreaker and mouth open on the BD. I'll need to play more with the chipbreaker.

Originally Posted by derekcohen

Luke, that was a fantastic reply!


The correct distance is when the shaving straightens. Curly is too far away, and accordian is too close (besides, the plane then becomes harder to push). Note that very fine shavings may not have the strength to hold up, and appear less straight as a result.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek, just to clarify, are you talking about the mouth distance to the blade or the chip breaker distance to the end of the blade?

Cheers

I assumed chip breaker. Incidentally, I just played with it before dinner. Put a 40deg bevel on the chip breaker to get a total of 90deg (50deg frog) and polished to 8000grit. Also honed and polished the bottom edge of the chipbreaker at a slight relief angle so the the front edge would contact the blade and seal perfectly even with the pressure from the breaker screw and lever cap. Gave the blade a fresh edge as well.

Opened the mouth a bit and set the chipbreaker to about 0.3mm from the edge. Seems to cut a bit nicer and i didn't note any tear out on the blackwood i was having issues with earlier. Called in for dinner before I could play too long but I think I'm gonna be happy!

Originally Posted by Lappa

Derek, just to clarify, are you talking about the mouth distance to the blade or the chip breaker distance to the end of the blade?

Cheers

I was referring to the distance from the chipbreaker to the end of the blade. However, the mouth needs to be opened up enough that the shavings can get through without trouble. The plane will jam if this is not done.

Regards from Perth

Derek