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  1. #1
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    Default Queen Bed design

    Hi all,

    I am in the design stage of a queen size bed project that I am hoping to start building in the next couple of months. I have read Jeff Miller’s “Beds” book which has been helpful for ideas and sizing of frame parts, however, I am planning to build a frame and panel style bed and have a few questions. I have used Google Sketch Up to help draw out the plans roughly based on a picture of a design from the internet that I like. The timber is yet to be determined but it will most likely be an Australian hardwood. This will also be the biggest project I have undertaken.

    There are a couple of functions that have informed some of the design so far. I would like it to sit high enough of the ground to allow a reasonable amount of storage under the bed but with the bend end finishing low enough to obscure vision of the things under the bed when viewed from front on. I was thinking of having the lowest point of the bed head below the top of the mattress to prevent the pillows falling down the back. I would like to be able to sit on the end of the bed or hang my feet off the edge of the bed when lying down as I am relatively tall. I would like the bed to have a heavy set feel and look to it – I definitely don’t want it to rack. I would also like to have leg posts that sit above the bed slightly to allow for a mosquito net to hang away from the feet. I would like the mattress to sit proud of the side rails by around 100mm. I have not decided whether I would like to use cap pieces on the posts or a large crown moulding piece on the top of the bed head and bed ends. I am open to criticism or comments regarding the overall design.

    I am also hoping for some advice on sizing some of the pieces. I have in mind 90x90mm posts, with 30mm thick horizontal and vertical rails at the bed head and bed end. I have been planning on 50x10x40mm (LxWxH) tenons on the horizontal rails to attach to the posts. I am hoping to have a simple moulding on the edge perhaps a ovolo/cavetto with fillets either side, and to use cope and stick joinery around the panels. Considering the size of the bed would 10mm moulding be appropriate?

    I am thinking of having raised panels with an ogee profile on the edge. Is there a rule of thumb for determining the thickness and depth of the groove in the frame to accept the panels? I was thinking of the ogee being about 30mm wide. Would this seem an appropriate size? Is this going to be hard to cut on a router table or with a moulding plane? I was thinking the panels would also be 30mm thick.

    Side rails would be 25-30mm thick and attached with stub tenons and hidden bed bolts to the posts. I could probably make them less wide than the 220mm I have draw on Sketch up. They would have notched runners for the base slats to sit on. I haven't drawn them in on google Sketch Up. Slats would be about 20mm thick. I am currently not planning on using a centre rail. Length and width are not yet finalised based on mattress size, but it should be close to as it currently drawn.

    Any other general advice or words of wisdom would be appreciated.

    Thanks,
    Tim

    Ambassador-Bed-Footboard-Detail.jpgBed perspective.pngBed end 1.pngSide On.pngBend end post.pngBed perspective behind.png

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  3. #2
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    Nice design.
    Just a couple of quick comments on storage. My wife wanted a quick bed made with storage under it for the spare room. The bed is a “rough as guts” slat base supported on 5 90x90mm legs. It originally had a futon but now has a 250mm thick mattress
    Tbe lowest part of the frame is 320mm from the ground so plenty of room to fit boxes etc. under.
    The mattress has a distance of 670-680mm from the top to the ground so I can sit on the end and my feet just touch the ground - I’m 6ft.

  4. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Caboose View Post
    I would like the mattress to sit proud of the side rails by around 100mm.
    Please give consideration to the added difficulty this may impose when trying to put on a fitted flat sheet over your mattress - this will require you to slide your hand down in between your side frame or bed head (or bed footer) and physically lift up each corner of your mattress one by one.

    I get that there must be some measure of the bed sides standing proud of the level of the slats, but depending on the thickness of your mattress, the amount you propose might be too much.

    You could simulate this on your existing bed using a bit of scrap cardboard put in to show where the new side would finish.

    If you use electric blankets, also consider how they will now need to be installed, together with how access to the controllers will work - particularly when considering the short leads these come with nowadays.

  5. #4
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    I have built 2 queen beds for myself and found that you will need a center rail unless you make your slats at least 35mm thick. I recommend that you don't go less than 50mm clearance all round to allow for sheets and blankets to be tucked in. I set my mattress down by only 40mm to make it easier to tuck the sheets in. The other thing that I recommend is to make the foot a little higher than the mattress so that the bedding doesn't slide down over it during the night.
    Check my facebook:rhbtimber

  6. #5
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    All valid points mentioned so far.
    A few things I would like to point out. First is those caps on the bed end posts, Nice as they look they will likely cause some bruses on the legs when you walk into them in the dark half asleep.
    To keep the slat thickness down is a center longways rail as specialist said and a fifth leg in the center for support. 20mm will then be OK.
    Bed bolts are more common in the US of A but there are quite a few good bed brackets available here. By all means make it so it breaks down for moving.
    Last bit of advice is be sure of the mattress dimensions before starting because I am not sure all queen mattresses are equal.
    Enjoy the project as a good solid wood bed will last a lifetime. Perhaps a few.

    Regards
    John

  7. #6
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    Please give consideration to the added difficulty this may impose when trying to put on a fitted flat sheet over your mattress - this will require you to slide your hand down in between your side frame or bed head (or bed footer) and physically lift up each corner of your mattress one by one. have a bed just like this, absolutely stupid, awkward design, but she wanted it...


    A few things I would like to point out. First is those caps on the bed end posts, Nice as they look they will likely cause some bruses on the legs when you walk into them in the dark half asleep.

    at that height its not my knees Id be concerned about.

    I could make a comment about bed height for extra activities but I think we'll leave that alone. rest assured physio took great delight in empting my wallet after bending over the side of the bed once too often.
    I would love to grow my own food, but I can not find bacon seeds

  8. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by orraloon View Post
    First is those caps on the bed end posts, Nice as they look they will likely cause some bruses on the legs when you walk into them in the dark half asleep.
    I assumed that the first image, the finished bed not a render, was simply an illustration. The renders don't show caps so I was assuming they weren't going to be on the final product

  9. #8
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    Hi Tim

    There are so many questions in this post, and questions that are being raised in my mind, its a bit hard to answer them all in a way that makes 100 % sense or in an ordered way. But here goes.


    What may make this easier is.
    What machinery are you using and do you have cutters or are you buying some in ?
    How are you cutting Groove , mortise and tenon ?


    Quote Originally Posted by The Caboose View Post
    I would like the bed to have a heavy set feel and look to it – I definitely don’t want it to rack.
    If you don't want racking then use two bed bolts per end of rail.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Caboose View Post
    I have in mind 90x90mm posts, with 30mm thick horizontal and vertical rails at the bed head and bed end. I have been planning on 50x10x40mm (LxWxH) tenons on the horizontal rails to attach to the posts.
    I would be going thicker than 10mm for those tenons . If it was 30 rail into 30 leg then 10mm would be right ok. 10mm is more a cupboard door or side table/ side board size tennon . The sort of thing people dont sit or lie on, and shift around that weight on .

    With 30 going into 90 you can make it stronger. 12.7 or 15.87 which is of course 1/2 " or 5/8" you could go thicker even but its getting away from a sensible approach .

    What you are possibly doing here, which we see a lot of, is a bit of a modern approach which gets away from the traditions that had this well sorted back in the 17 / 18 th century .

    The tenon thickness was the same as the groove that takes the panel and dead in line with it back then, and now ,in panel and frame work. So you would chose a Mortise and tenon that suits the design and that determines the groove width that holds the panel in place . You draw that up and draw the side view of the panel with the mould you like and that determines the panel thickness from its front to the back ending at the flush back in line with the back of the groove . Or you take the panel back deeper and have to then mould both sides of the panel.

    This way of building works with a plough plane and a mortise chisel . 18th C.
    Or today with a router / spindle moulder and a chisel mortiser.

    Known as the KISS principle then and now

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle



    Quote Originally Posted by The Caboose View Post
    I am hoping to have a simple moulding on the edge perhaps a ovolo/cavetto with fillets either side, and to use cope and stick joinery around the panels. Considering the size of the bed would 10mm moulding be appropriate?
    Doesn't your cope and stick cutters determine the mould on the rails and stiles ? Or are you just thinking of mortise and tenon construction and adding the mould of your choice mitered and glued in after assembly ?

    cope and stick cutters

    https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...AEwAQ..i&w=583

    Quote Originally Posted by The Caboose View Post
    I am thinking of having raised panels with an ogee profile on the edge. Is there a rule of thumb for determining the thickness and depth of the groove in the frame to accept the panels? I was thinking of the ogee being about 30mm wide. Would this seem an appropriate size? Is this going to be hard to cut on a router table or with a moulding plane? I was thinking the panels would also be 30mm thick.
    First , with this question , if your going the cope and stick , off a cutter method for making this, doesn't the cutter determine the thickness of groove ? Or can you drop different size cutters in for different groove sizes . I dont use cope and stick cutters so dont own any. All my work so far has been traditional cabinet joinery. I only see cope and stick on other peoples kitchen doors or on traditional architectural work . It wasn't done on furniture in the old days.

    30 mm thick panels seems over kill to me . I would be doing like I said above and drawing it up and seeing what I need at the least and building it from there for looks . Its a mattress on one side so a panel flush to the back of the groove will do and with a guess 19 to 22 mm thick may be fine .

    I normally do my grooves at 14mm deep so 14 + 30 is 44 mm projection of the cutter to mould it . Thats more like spindle moulder work .

    Or if its a router then one big cutter on a router that has speed control to slow it down .

    Or look at doing the panels up on their edge with a tall narrow OG cutter in the router if such a cutter exists.

    Or consider going to a raised or fielded panel which can be done on a table saw.


    Regards Rob

  10. #9
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    Thanks everyone for your input. It is certainly helpful to work through these problems on paper before encountering them mid build.

    Quote Originally Posted by specialist View Post
    I have built 2 queen beds for myself and found that you will need a center rail unless you make your slats at least 35mm thick.
    Did you have issues using thinner slats? The book I have suggests 3/4" thick slats for all queen size slatted beds. His queen size mattress measurements are similar to mine. I am happy enough to go to 35mm if needed to prevent cracking slats or an overly springy bed. I'd prefer not to add a centre rail as it seems an awkward height to attached to the bed end in the current design. It would sit in the middle of the panels on the bed end which I would have thought should not be load bearing. Is there a better way of doing this?

    Quote Originally Posted by poundy View Post
    I assumed that the first image, the finished bed not a render, was simply an illustration. The renders don't show caps so I was assuming they weren't going to be on the final product
    At the moment I haven't decided but am leaning towards no caps. The finished bed is a design I have based the drawing on - it is not my design but a picture from the internet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Man View Post
    Please give consideration to the added difficulty this may impose when trying to put on a fitted flat sheet over your mattress - this will require you to slide your hand down in between your side frame or bed head (or bed footer) and physically lift up each corner of your mattress one by one.

    I get that there must be some measure of the bed sides standing proud of the level of the slats, but depending on the thickness of your mattress, the amount you propose might be too much.

    You could simulate this on your existing bed using a bit of scrap cardboard put in to show where the new side would finish.
    I did have this in mind as when my father built his bed he neglected this point. I thought set in half way would be enough but I could make it 40-50mm as suggested by specialist. I think I will try the cardboard as you have suggested and adjust accordingly.



    Quote Originally Posted by auscab View Post
    What machinery are you using and do you have cutters or are you buying some in ?
    How are you cutting Groove , mortise and tenon ?
    I was planning on doing all the mortise and tenon and grooving by chisel and plane. I do have access to an old Triton router table which, while not pretty, can be made to work if the hand work is too much. I do not have a spindle moulder. I also have a saw on the portable triton work bench. It is okay for rough cuts but I have not found it a great piece of machinery for accuracy. Admittedly, this is probably due to poor set up of a tired old tool and a lack of operator skill. I will probably have a go at trying to improve the performance before I start this project.

    Quote Originally Posted by auscab View Post
    I would be going thicker than 10mm for those tenons .
    Noted – with thanks. I will adjust the plans accordingly.


    Quote Originally Posted by auscab View Post
    The tenon thickness was the same as the groove that takes the panel and dead in line with it back then, and now ,in panel and frame work. So you would chose a Mortise and tenon that suits the design and that determines the groove width that holds the panel in place . You draw that up and draw the side view of the panel with the mould you like and that determines the panel thickness from its front to the back ending at the flush back in line with the back of the groove. Or you take the panel back deeper and have to then mould both sides of the panel.
    I am not entirely sure if I understand you correctly, but I was thinking I could have thicker tenons on the horizontal rails (say 5/8” as you suggested) that attach to the large leg posts and then thinner tenons (say 10mm? out of 30mm rails/stiles) on the vertical stiles that would match the grooves for the panels.


    Quote Originally Posted by auscab View Post
    Doesn't your cope and stick cutters determine the mould on the rails and stiles ?
    I apologise, I have used the wrong term. I am not planning on using cope and stick joinery/router pieces. I actually just meant to say that I was planning to cope the moulding (I think… Whatever the term is when you cut away the stiles in the profile of the mating piece rather than a mitre joint)
    Quote Originally Posted by auscab View Post
    30 mm thick panels seems over kill to me . I would be doing like I said above and drawing it up and seeing what I need at the least and building it from there for looks . Its a mattress on one side so a panel flush to the back of the groove will do and with a guess 19 to 22 mm thick may be fine .
    Panel flush to the back was what I was thinking. So if it is 19-22mm thick it will sit back from the front face of the rails and stiles even at the most raised section? I could draw that up and see how that looks. I had a feeling 30mm panels may be overly thick but I was basing the design on kitchen panels I have at home (for lack of other example) and they have panels that are as thick as the frame.


    Quote Originally Posted by auscab View Post
    I normally do my grooves at 14mm deep so 14 + 30 is 44 mm projection of the cutter to mould it . Thats more like spindle moulder work .

    Or if its a router then one big cutter on a router that has speed control to slow it down .

    Or look at doing the panels up on their edge with a tall narrow OG cutter in the router if such a cutter exists.

    Or consider going to a raised or fielded panel which can be done on a table saw.


    Regards Rob
    Thanks for all your input Rob. I had a feeling that may be the case. As I don’t have a spindle router I may be better off doing it as a raised panel. The other option I suppose is moulding planes but I don’t have any experience with them and there are quite a few panels to do. I like hand tool work but I have a feeling I will be using power tools a bit where it can help to speed up the process.

  11. #10
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    I've build two beds using Jeff Miller's book.
    I think that nearly all your questions are answered in Jeff's book -- either in the intro or as techniques in one of the beds Jeff builds.
    As a first venture into large scale work, I'd encourage you to follow Jeff's sizings when it comes to mortices and tenons, and rails. And build every jig he shows that is applicable to your project. If you size your tenons correctly and build tight joints, the bed won't rack.

    To decide if a molding is "right" I find that drawing it full scale helps greatly as does making a short length of trial molding and looking for examples in the wild.

    Rob has responded re appropriate panel thickness and using cope and stick cutters -- personally I don't consider cope and stick to be robust enough for anything other than [kitchen] cabinet doors. In terms of how thick the panels need to be, I suggest that 3 to 5 mm more than the depth of the field will be ample. That 3 to 5 mm will be the tongue which sits in the groove in the panel rails and styles.


    In respect to the mattress slats -- I used nominal 100 x 25 mm Tassie Oak slats for the queen sized bed I build over 15 years ago. (The slats finished around 95 x 20 mm.) Tassie oak is sold quarter sawn and I've had no deflection in the slats over the past 15 years.
    regards from Alberta, Canada

    ian

  12. #11
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    You will have plenty of hand tool work with this Tim. And with the lack of experience with the moulding planes, and the fact that moulding aussie hardwoods across the grain would be a real hard way to learn! You may want to have a play at it first before you get stuck into the build.

    I love my moulding planes and using them is great when I have to . I just use them for saving time though. One off mouldings in restoration work, Or when finishing off stuff done with a router to get a better shape and the right look on a new build. Though on a whole Bed like that it would be an impressive sight to see it all done by hand . And look good for it too.

    10mm wide for the groove like you say and 12.7 for tenon if you like that may be good, or next size up. I did a quick drawing with rails at 30mm thick and with a 12.7 groove for the panel . It works but just starts to look a little thin with whats left to hold the panel .

    Id be looking at giving that Triton with the router a go over and try and get it going well.
    Or mount a router upside down in a longer wooden top even in a basic way with a basic fence.
    Or just use a router the upright way which is not as good for what you have to do .

    A 6.4 mm slot cutter with a 14.5 roughly depth, off a ball bearing , In a couple of passes to give the 10mm or what ever width . Its fast.
    And the 6.4 comes in handy for drawer making as well . Running the groves for drawer bottoms for a later project possibly.

    A coped joint by hand to all that woodwork looks like some real hard work to Me. Id say either mould all rails and stiles with router and miter them in the normal way when its all fitted up before glueing together. Have you seen that before ?
    Or for an easy good look , mortise and tenon and add the mould in , glued to the rails and stiles , after its all glued up. Its probably easier to do that on a flat panel but with some planning it could work.

    I think I may have repeated a few things I said before ?
    Its a nice looking project Tim. Good luck with it. A bed for myself is something Id like to do one day.
    I made a nice one for a client a few years back . Because it could be taken into her house as a single unit it didn't need to be broken down . The head board screwed into place once in but it was a solid base , all glued up and pegged M & T and will never rack.

    I also worked restoring plenty of old English and French Antique Beds . Plenty of the French ones had single Bolts . Every one in a French house would have heard what ever was going on in the bedroom that had some of those beds in them on a quite night ! Most of the English Four post beds I saw had two bed bolts per rail end with two captive nuts. They were good and didn't move.
    There are some good modern ways as well now, like ( edit ) Orraloon mentioned above in post 5 .

    Rob

  13. #12
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    About the slats and centre rail. Have made 5 Q/sized beds and only ever used 20mm hardwood slats with no centre rail. Never had an issuse and one of the beds was commissioned by a veritable trampoline bed user.
    Never even heard of broken bed slats on a custom made bed.

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