Thread: Restoring an old table

I should have just clicked on the link you provided!

Originally Posted by Phildy

Thanks Rob

Not sure about the pew though, have you any clues? The lady who sold it to me says it was out of a church at Templers in SA. I am betting the church was built in 1930 and that's why she thinks the pew is 1930s.

I might look into getting the turned legs done professionally as that's a lot of hard work. I should be able to handle the skirts and, unfortunately, the old guy had already partly belt sanded the top. It still has some dings and scratches in it, I want to keep them, so I might just polish it up. How about varnish? It is going to be under polycarb roofing outside and the sun is likely to have an impact. I've used some UV urethane on old oak dining chairs and it seems to withstand the suns effects.

No Probs .
The pew probably is 1930s
The wood on it looks to be a pine but the darker growth rings on the end grain in the arm rest don't look so much like Kauri . Or is it a blonde hardwood ?
Varnish used the right way may be ok , I'm mainly into reviving that sort of thing with french polish / shellac .
Under Polycarb roof will be tough on it . I have the same thing and the top of my table under that roof has been cooked , My top has opened in the middle and the finish has to be redone every 5 years . One good thing about shellac is it revives well .
There's no such thing as beating mother natures forces when it comes to finishes , or any thing else for that matter. The tougher the finish the tougher it can be to fix when good old MN does her thing to it.

Rob

Thanks Rob I'm betting it's a hardwood of some sort. My test is always to press a thumbnail into the timber, if it dents it's likely to be pine. This definitely doesn't dent and the weight tells me it's something substantial. I have to repair an area at the foot of the end pieces that was removed to accommodate a sloping floor. Thankfully the lady had a prayer book shelf from one of the other pews she had sold previously. It's made of the same timber, only a little thinner. I think I will veneer two pieces, then dowel them onto the base of the missing section to make a type of pedestal base. It's only about a 6" by 2.5" (sorry for old school measurements) piece that needs replacing. Once I cut and sand the blocks I'll have a better clue as to what the wood is!
I hear what you say about the use of shellac and the ability to revive down the track. I'll take that on board.
In the meantime I have found a 'federation restoration' place that removes coatings from old things. I will drop the legs off to him tomorrow and see what he can do.
Again, many thanks.

I might add, half of the fun of acquiring and restoring pieces like these is learning where they came from, how they were originally built and used. Nothing better than sitting at a table knowing that people for many years, from many years ago, were eating as you are right now. New life to old wares.

Rob
Do you think the timber for the pew cold be mountain ash?

Yeah , something like that . Alpine ash is quite blonde . Identifying the Aussie hardwood is like identifying pines to me , they can be quite close and it takes a bit of handling of them, to know when you see them, what they are . viewing on computer screens adds to the difficulty . One thing that you may know, but I cant see it in the pics is, pines don't have open grain and hardwoods do .
Rob

I looked at the mark on the skirt again and it is a 'C' then an upward arrow then an 'H'. I'll post a photo tomorrow. Any clues on how I can find out what this is?

Hi Phildy,

Welcome to the forums.

I agree with what others have said about age and the balance you have to have between restoration and renewal. The legs certainly seem to be Edwardian - although design books do show those inscribed lines in pieces as early as the 1870's - a lot older than the style of top that you describe. The corners of the top being cut off and the simplicity that you describe for the edge treatment/moulding are typical of the 1920's to 1930's.

Many functional items like refectory tables and government issue furniture were significantly altered as the need arose. Many such tables had the original top either irreparably damaged or else removed for some purpose and then were later fitted with a new top. This could happen if a candle fell over and burned a big hole in the top or some such similar disaster.

That could explain the inconsistency in style that you are seeing. Likewise, such pieces were refinished as the need or fancy of the OIC changed.

If this is true for your table it does free you from concerns about originality and integrity of the piece - the sort of concerns that constrain conservators and restorers of important early furniture. As such, it would perhaps make it easier to just do with it as you will.

I would encourage you to do the work yourself, even the legs, as, unless there are still good restorers that are easy to find and afford in Adelaide (they are becoming rare here in Brisbane) you could find yourself paying a lot of money for a less-than-perfect or even downright poor job.

As others have said, avoid the metal brackets at all costs. if you have excellent woodwork skills then slip tenons the same size as the original ones would keep your proportions. In my experience dowels are unlikely to provide adequate strength for such a large table. Using a Festool Domino machine with a very strong modern adhesive (good PVA or epoxy) may be a possibility if an Adelaide member who has one were to help you (still not as strong as a full mortise and tenon joint I suspect but a lot easier).

I know it is too late for this piece now, but for any future finds it is worthwhile knowing that instead of cutting the tenons off you could most probably have pulled the table apart if you had poured boiling water into the joints. That is because it was almost 100% certainly originally glued with the hide glue that Neil mentioned in his response - and that is a reversible adhesive. Then you could just have used new hide glue to stick it back together!

Hope this helps

David

Originally Posted by Phildy

I looked at the mark on the skirt again and it is a 'C' then an upward arrow then an 'H'. I'll post a photo tomorrow. Any clues on how I can find out what this is?

The Arrow means it was government owned property . There is probably some more accurate way of describing this, and the C and H ?
City ^ Hospital ??
Google history on the Hospital and see what it's name was back in 1900 .

I was reading about the birth of my Dad in 1933 and the Hospital he was born at went through three or four name changes. From the 1870s to the 1940s


Rob

I believe it was Hillcrest Hospital to the north of Adelaide. This was called Northfield Mental Hospital when it was proclaimed in 1926. From the Adelaide University website:

It...'was built to accommodate South Australia's mentally ill and to provide them with therapeutic occupation in a farm-like setting. In reality, the inmates of Northfield lived within a custodial system for more than thirty years which saw many of them become institutionalised and highly dependent upon an authoritarian regime. The stringencies of the war years only escalated the overcrowding problem and Northfield's facilities continued to deteriorate as it tried to accommodate more and more patients - young, elderly and infirm, suffering from a range of mental conditions. In 1964, Northfield Mental Hospital was renamed Hillcrest Hospital, a decision which reflected the changing attitudes and approaches to those in need of psychiatric assessment and rehabilitation.'

I am contacting the rare book librarian at Adelaide University to find out how I might research this further. Did the table get used by the inmates or the staff? This could be a great debate as 12-14 of us sit around the table eating dinner!

I looked, by the way, at where the frame fits to the top (or vice versa) and it sits about 4-6" inside the edges. Depending on the size of the tenons (perhaps you could advise what's best), remaking them might not lose me that much and only set the frame back in a little, making the appearance of the table better I believe?

David

Thanks for your welcome and advice.

On inspection of the underside of the top and the stain/lacquer on both the legs and the under side of the top (why did they bother staining the underside?), it would appear the two were put together the same time. Having said this, the legs could be 'ex stock' and the construction a while later than their original manufacture. I've found out it probably comes from the Hillcrest Hospital, originally known as the Northfield Mental Hospital, proclaimed in 1926. I doubt it was built then, but may have been put together out of materials in government stores. Remember this is between wars and materials all round were in short supply, they did a lot of patching up and using spare parts in those days. The utility look of the simple top also matches the use in a hospital, possible the administration building as a dining table for staff (although it could just have easily been for inmates as in those days they probably had communal feeding). Rob from Melbourne thinks the material may be Kauri pine, this would also fit with the weight of the top. It is hard to tell because of the stain.

Rob has convinced me to shorten the skirts and make new tenons as this will prove to be the strongest, especially for such a long and heavy table. I'll remake the mortices, any clues on the depth I should make them?

Unfortunately, the guy who acquired this from the hospital obviously couldn't be bothered dissolving the glue and needed to deconstruct the table for transport and storage purposes. Hence the crude sawing of the skirts at the legs. Fortunately, the top was fixed by metal screws and the cross members in the frame had not been glued at all.

I am looking forward to completing the project and posting a final picture on here.

Again, many thanks for the advice.

There's an interesting article on broad arrows here. You could try contacting them:

The World of Norfolk's MuseumThe World of Norfolk's Museum: New Museum Acquisition - convict made chest of drawers

Rob

On another note, my wife and I restored (a little roughly it seems now because I didn't realise what I had) an old dresser that belonged to my grandmother (I think her parents may have given it to her). It had three coats of paint over the original timber, fluoro green, orange and then a gloss white. The first two colours were obviously applied during the 60s/70s by my sister! Anyway, we got the paint off after much labour and I noted a mark and number stamped on the inside top of one of the drawers 'Beard Watson & Co'. I must say that I am a little surprised and delighted. It is a very solid piece of Arts & Crafts furniture circa 1910/20 and I only found out a bit about it when I searched for the meaning of the inverted heart shape hole in the mirror frame!

Amazing what you find laying around!

I for some reason thought your table was just cut off at one end . Ive been rushing about all week and got involved with your thread Phildy sort of on the run in between doing some work . I now realize all 4 legs have been cut from the rails . This changes thing a little in my mind . The base will be coming in all around twice the distance I first thought.

To work out your length. remove one tenon from a leg to get an idea of its depth, it will be 55 to 75 mm long probably .

To restore that table, now that I realize its the 4 legs . Id be using the long rails to re make the short ones . and Id be buying some Malaysian Kauri , If you can still get it . Last time I asked for it I got good stuff . And Id re make the long rails and match the colour and patina to the original. All with tenons done the right way.

Now the machines are running and I have an Apprentice needing to know how to cut his first dovetailed drawer. We are onto the second set of drawer sides at this stage , the first ones had to be thrown. Man !!

Rob