Thread: The Old Skills-Will they die out?

some skills get lost due to being redundant, but many skills have simply evolved. instead of cutting a piece of timber to length with a handsaw, we now use a circular saw. and because our circular saws r pretty damn good at cutting straight and square and true etc etc, we no longer need to shoot a board square anymore. moulding planes are no longer needed because we now use powered hand routers. planing panels flat have been replaced with jointers/thicknessers and finishing with sanders whether it be wide-belts or random orbitals.

I am a wood machinist, my natural tendency is to use machinery to create whatever shape, size i want. I prefer to use machinery because (i'd like to think this anyways) I can machine to perfection or handcraft mistakes

I can imagine a shop not needing a single handplane or handsaw. I cannot imagine a shop not needing chisels, marking gauges, rulers, hammers etc.

All of the trades are dying right in front of us.
Heaps of em are already dead and buried.
That is progress.
Or regress, depending on how you look at it.

This reminds me of a (fictional) story I was told in grade 5 (1985) that really struck a chord with me, even then...

(Set in the future) A young boy was called in front of the world's leaders and top scientific minds. This child was said to have incredible intelligence and abilities far, FAR beyond the greatest minds of the time. The child was sat at a table that was barren but for a glass and pitcher of water. "What is 532 plus 172?" The child looked down with a concentrated frown on his face. Within minutes he answered "704". The scientists scoffed loudly that such a young thing could know the answer. They pulled out their calculators...entered the formula...and were shocked and amazed to see that the answer really was 704. etc etc (Basically: The scientists of the time, held with the highest regard, needed a machine to do basic math)

That supposed future is already here in some ways. I was brought up working with wood on machines and while my career (for commercial reasons of money and time) mandates that I continue using machines, I have vowed to always keep informing and educating myself of "the old ways". Thankfully besides building new furniture, I also get to do a lot of restoration work and get to see just how it was done before my time....sometimes...but I truly treasure and respect those pieces when they're given to me.

I'm 21 and try my best to use only hand tools - but I would never consider doing it for a job. As a hobby, I think it will stick around for ages, but perhaps there won't be as big of a pool of knowledge to draw from. I think there's even a drop off in knowledge of power tools...already!

I wouldn't be surprised if the market for one off hand-made furniture increases in the future.

I don't think the skill will die out because there are enough wealthy people who can afford to fit out their boats and houses no expense spared. But it will be confined to people who serve an apprenticeship and make it a career.

I suspect the hobbyist, do it yourself tradition will die out. There are fewer and fewer opportunities for young people to develop the basic skill set. When I was a kid I used to make model aircraft out of balsa wood - but who is going to do that when you can buy a little drone for a few dollars? I used to service and repair my car, but I look under the bonnet of my present car and wouldn't know where to start. I made furniture for my house, but now you can buy it cheaper at IKEA than the cost of the wood.

I suspect there is a bulge in the sales of high end tools now because the baby boomers are retiring and finally have the leisure and money to indulge their pent up creativity. But I reckon it will tail off.

I used to work for a small private school in the bush and they started up a manual arts department. I was the only person there with any sort of wood working skills and so I became the manual art teacher I built and fitted out all the interior of the building, made all the benches sourced all the equipment, made all the cupboards. and when it was finished I ran the most informal program I possibly could. Since nobody else knew anything about timber and tools they left me alone to do my thing.The kids just wanted to make stuff and that was the course I ran. One of the students said that it was like working with grand dad in his shed and that was the way I wanted it. I had some projects that the kids could work on if they were stuck for an idea but they were young and enthusiastic and so mostly they knew what they wanted to make-same actually as most of us on the forum. I had to have some sort of assessment so I got the kids to evaluate their own jobs and the mark they gave the work was the mark I gave them. It seems to me that the idea of telling a 13 year old girl just starting out that the box she has designed and put her heart into making as a gift to her father is only worth 62% or even looking to find fault with it is ridiculous. The kids could look at their work, with a bit of help and see how it could be done better next time, but I do not believe that a teacher should, especially at that age do any sort of fault finding. I am old now but one of my most treasured memories was showing this young girl how to use a hand plane. We were separated by many years of age, gender, experience-as different as two humans could be. But I will never forget the look in her eye when she turned to me as said "using a plane is fun". I looked back at her and smiled and said "I know".

The old skills are not just for old men to enjoy and given the right environment the young will love them also. But I do not think that I would have gotten away with this approach in many other places and I do not think that the modern school manual arts courses are what we need.

PS: I would surprise many forum members to see the sorts of tools students are sometimes asked to use and the timber they are given. Carpenters chisels with sides the width of aircraft runways and brittle, resinous radiata pine for example. It is no wonder when they are older people think that hand cut dovetails are only cut by people well versed in black magic.

Originally Posted by elanjacobs

The TAFE I went to had 2 courses as well, but having different courses only works if you have teachers with the appropriate skills for each one.

The problem was elanjacobs, that the teachers had noticed that those basic skills that kids used to have when they came to TAFE were missing. The two streams was their way to accommodate this. According to the guy I spoke to, these kids only wanted to work in the kitchen manufacturing factories. Not that that's a bad thing, there were others who had the skills and wanted to do the more complex stuff. That was around 2008, things may be different now.

TT

Originally Posted by Glennet

I don't think the skill will die out because there are enough wealthy people who can afford to fit out their boats and houses no expense spared. But it will be confined to people who serve an apprenticeship and make it a career.

I suspect the hobbyist, do it yourself tradition will die out. There are fewer and fewer opportunities for young people to develop the basic skill set. When I was a kid I used to make model aircraft out of balsa wood - but who is going to do that when you can buy a little drone for a few dollars? I used to service and repair my car, but I look under the bonnet of my present car and wouldn't know where to start. I made furniture for my house, but now you can buy it cheaper at IKEA than the cost of the wood.

I suspect there is a bulge in the sales of high end tools now because the baby boomers are retiring and finally have the leisure and money to indulge their pent up creativity. But I reckon it will tail off.

I do not like one bit of what you have just written. Not a word of it!

But I fear it may be absolutely true-unless steps are taken to reverse the process. I see no evidence that this will happen.

There will always to room for every preference in woodworking. And choices occur, and change, when the time is right.

Schools may be closing down manual art programs, however the Internet has changed the manner in which information, and motivation, takes place.

Most kids of today are more involved with the high stimulus impact of video games and lack the patience for woodworking. I work with kids and see how patience, tolerance and planning ability is undermined by this addiction. However, I am also confident that time will pass, and maturity will kick in (eventually), and when the time is right - having to fix up that new apartment or home for the new bride (does this sound familiar?) - then the mind will turn to tools and building.

What type of woodworking one does - power, hand, flat vs turning, computer-assisted, etc, etc - may come down to personality and/or situation. If you look through the Internet, you will find forums, videos, blogs, websites ...., and there is just so much information and discussion and motivation there.

Handtool skills develop with hands-on practice, and the limiting factor here is only time ... if you let this be the case. I know several full-time furniture makers who ONLY use handtools. I know many more who use both power- and handtools, and they are skilled in each area.

We live in an age where the absolutely BEST handtools EVER are being designed and built. Like many others, I choose to use handtools for everything beyond the grunt work, which is done with machinery apprentices. And Kuffy, this includes all mouldings - no power routers needed. And there are many other amateurs doing it this way as well - who appreciate the absence of noise and dust and the joy of crafting something with one's hands.

It is not going away. There are too many re-discovering these skills and the pleasure of working without the need safety equipment, which is replaced my good jazz on the stereo. Mine is just one of 100s of websites that documents hand-built furniture, and hand tool use, for others to learn from.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by derekcohen

There will always to room for every preference in woodworking. And choices occur, and change, when the time is right.

Schools may be closing down manual art programs, however the Internet has changed the manner in which information, and motivation, takes place.

Most kids of today are more involved with the high stimulus impact of video games and lack the patience for woodworking. I work with kids and see how patience, tolerance and planning ability is undermined by this addiction. However, I am also confident that time will pass, and maturity will kick in (eventually), and when the time is right - having to fix up that new apartment or home for the new bride (does this sound familiar?) - then the mind will turn to tools and building.

What type of woodworking one does - power, hand, flat vs turning, computer-assisted, etc, etc - may come down to personality and/or situation. If you look through the Internet, you will find forums, videos, blogs, websites ...., and there is just so much information and discussion and motivation there.

Handtool skills develop with hands-on practice, and the limiting factor here is only time ... if you let this be the case. I know several full-time furniture makers who ONLY use handtools. I know many more who use both power- and handtools, and they are skilled in each area.

We live in an age where the absolutely BEST handtools EVER are being designed and built. Like many others, I choose to use handtools for everything beyond the grunt work, which is done with machinery apprentices. And Kuffy, this includes all mouldings - no power routers needed. And there are many other amateurs doing it this way as well - who appreciate the absence of noise and dust and the joy of crafting something with one's hands.

It is not going away. There are too many re-discovering these skills and the pleasure of working without the need safety equipment, which is replaced my good jazz on the stereo. Mine is just one of 100s of websites that documents hand-built furniture, and hand tool use, for others to learn from.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek
When I got a Veritas BU Smoother I asked you about the angle to grind the blade and you where right about that. (At an effective angle of 52 degrees the plane is just magic.) I hope you right about this too.

Another story from my days looking after a white board kitchen company. We started a kid as an apprentice. He was not like most, in that he listened to what you told him and would try his best to get it right. I had made 2 triangle squares for setting out. They were about 600 long and 350 wide. I told him to grab the 60/30 set square to set out this particular job......his question.....which is which.....I couldn't believe he didn't know the difference between a 60/30 and a 45° set square. Why hadn't he learned this at school???? I still reckon that the teachers/syllabus' are not giving the grounding in basic stuff to allow further education to be built on
I know I had a great regret that we didn't have the time to actually teach the apprentices exactly how to go about getting a job to completion. The kids were observers who were called upon to help a tradesman and there by being present to "pick up" the information necessary to get a job done.
I suppose it was the case when I was an apprentice when I come to think about it. Observing what is going on is a big part of "picking up" the procedure and then eventually trying your best to get a result.
In that instance with the nephew and his design for his chest, I was reminded of all the "rules" associated with making a frame to house a panel and making sure the panel could "float" in the groove of the frame allowing movement. There are "rules" associated with any procedure while building anything, and knowing them and learning them is a big part of getting a proper result. I have found that most kids (apprentices) don't want to listen when you start telling them why you do it this way. They don't seem to even care, and that's the sad part. We did have a number of kids that turned out to be real Tradesmen that went about things the right way and really cared about what they were doing.

I tried to think of a good anecdote, but I eventually decided to just say this:

I'm twenty nine. Thirty in three weeks. I've been working wood seriously for a little over a year and on and off with my uncle for a few years before that. I've played a major role in the year-long, period specific, complete restoration of a home which was built in the American Southeast in the mid 1700s, and I've also built modern homes from the ground up.

I am a hand tool woodworker and enthusiast. I think I will always have a good lathe, but if I could figure out a way to get rid of every machine in my shop aside from that without crippling myself, I would do it. Every time I buy a (hand) ltool, I do it with the intention of never buying that tool again, and passing it onto someone some day, hopefully my (as of yet hypothetical) son, who will appreciate it as much as I do.

I get a few weird looks given my funny accent, long hair, and sandals-plus-tee-shirt dress code. At the TWWW show I approached the Henry Eckert reps and told them I wanted to buy a pair of Lie Nielsen drawbore pins. I got the impression they had accidentally brought them with no expectation anyone would ask about them, and they double checked to make sure I knew what I was asking for. I live for those moments

Anyway, my point is, in the realm of woodworking I think I'm considered a younger guy, but I have all of the drive and determination to keep the craft alive and to pass on the joy and enthusiasm associated with creating and designing wooden furniture and other items to as many people as I can.

So I guess maybe there's hope?

Cheers,
Luke

Oh, and my cousin and I are going to mill a 60ft Black Walnut tree by hand this winter.

So I've got that going for me...

Originally Posted by Evanism

When you were 18, were you faced with the bleak future of today? Could you actually buy the house you live in now, today?

Evanism I got married in 1973 and I remember my then fiancee and I sharing a meal with an older couple who had taken us under their wing. He was a builder and I remember him saying to me that he was glad he was not starting out then because he thought times were bleak. He had his own home etc. The banks weren't lending to a young couple just staring out with no collateral. Neither of us had parents who could give us a "kick off" in life. My wife and I started a cleaning business and were pulling in 3 times what we made when we were on wages. After 3 years we again approached our bank (ANZ) for a loan and were again refused. This time because they claimed they didn't believe our books even though we had our business accounts with them.

Maybe the problem now is that too much money has been lent.

To get back on topic, your point that "This is a deep cultural issue. It is not "the youth", it is what we have done to them." may have some validity. I just think no one wants to buy wooden stuff with dovetail joints any more. They want Apple stuff. All plastic and software. So the commercial cabinet making stops. It's all written down in books and scattered across the interweb. It's the hobbyists that will keep the trade secrets alive.

TT