Thread: The Old Skills-Will they die out?

Hi,
I came across a pertinent remark recently

"A skill not shared is a skill lost".

Regards

Originally Posted by chook

But I wonder how many of the young cabinet makers who do their time have an appreciation of solid timber, tools and skills that are the domain of the weekend warrior. Some may, but the number can only be small. And once they do their time, how often do they get to use these old skills. Not often. I suppose that a modern cabinet maker would soon go broke if they tried to construct solid timber objects using the same construction methods as we might do on a Sunday afternoon. But surely the old skills have a value worth preserving. How this is to be done, I do not know.

There are some young blokes who pursue a trade in solid timber joinery, stair building etc but discerning clients are few and far between nowadays. I know one local who struggles for consistent work.

Some weeks back a neighbour asked if I knew anything about renewing the sash cords in the windows of their 50s era house. When I said yes she jumped in and asked me to "fix" all the windows in the house. They were going to paint the windows and needed the sash cords done first.
[I started my Carpentry and Joinery Apprenticeship in 1970. At the time aluminium windows were slowly being introduced into the industry. We had to draw double hung windows and learn all the names of the parts. We didn't have to make one but we did make a casement window because at that time it was trend to go that way.
Years later when I was a Tradesman I had to renew some sash cords in a Pub. I had to go back to my old text books to refresh my mind as to how to go about it.]
The windows in question were in good order and changing the cords was pretty well straight forward. As I was doing the work I wondered how the "modern Tradesman" would go at the job. I figured most of them would not have a clue.
Yesterday a nephew wanted me to run some timber through the thicknesser for his major project at school. He is making a chest with an arched lid. He handed me a frame that he had made and asked if I could square up the out side of the frame by running it over the bench saw. I said to him that he could/should do it with a hand plane....answer...."Oh I'm not good at using a hand plane". He also wanted to use my dovetailing jig to cot the dovetails on the corners of this chest. I didn't dare tell him to cut them by hand! His side frames for this chest are made from Stringy Bark 100 X 25 rails and styles biscuited together with a rebate cut into the back side and a panel of 60 X 12 mm Jarrah strips butt glue together then glued into the rebate. I told him that he may have problems with differing timber movement between the timber species used. I wondered if his teacher had proper knowledge of timber joinery to give advise on this this type of construction to the students.
When I do a laminating job (Gluing down Laminex sheets) I hear my old woodwork teacher telling me how to do it, cause that's where I learned it!
When I was working we had kids start as apprentices (white board kitchen industry) who had no basic knowledge from their High School days in woodwork. I was amased and disgusted that the kids are not exposed to the fundamentals of real woodwork joinery.
A lot of skills and knowledge is being lost!
In town we had a bloke who specialised in making leaf springs for the auto mobile and air craft industry. I bought a second hand 60 Series Landcruiser in 1988 that needed the springs retempered and a couple added to the stack. I am still driving that vehicle and it still sits up well and carries a load well too. The guy bought his son into the business and trained him to carry on the business so he could retire. The son did not get a good reputation for his spring setting work because the springs he "fixed" would sag quite quickly over time. That business is now closed.
Getting back to the nephew and his generation I think they want results NOW and hand tool methods are just not good enough!!! Patients is not evident in our "McDonalds get it now!!!" world.
A little while back in the Metalwork Forum it was stated that the Fitting and Machining coarses have dropped the part of making helical gears. So if you have some thing damaged where do you go to get a new one if the machine the gear is in is obsolete?
I think that we on this Forum are an important part of keeping skills current

The old skills certainly are dying out, but there are some of us young fellas still interested in learning them before it's too late.

I was very lucky to find an apprenticeship with a company that still makes real furniture the proper way. I dare say we're one of the few places that can still make a traditional wing chair or sprung-edge sofa frame, or make/repair woven cane seats (not hand woven, unfortunately, the pre-woven rolls).

The biggest problem is that the market has conditioned people to think that $500 for a sofa is normal. When you tell people that your basic dining chair starts at around $450-500 +GST (depending on fabric, timber and polish) they think you're screwing them over and $3000+ for a sofa is just absurd to most buyers.

Good story Rod.

Originally Posted by chambezio

I think that we on this Forum are an important part of keeping skills current

Yes, I suspect you are quite right there - and when I've got some I'll attempt to keep them alive! I learnt recently that apprentice plumbers are no longer taught how to solder. Ah, say what?

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

I learnt recently that apprentice plumbers are no longer taught how to solder. Ah, say what?

And I reckon most of them would not know how to cut a thread on a gal pipe.

One day when I was working in white board a school teacher arrived to go through the workshop with a small group of "pimple faced youths". (He went to church with the boss) The teacher told me he didn't need any assistance from me to show him around......I hovered around with the group just to be sure they didn't get up to anything malicious. This clown of a teacher watched one of our lads use a nail gun to assemble a cupboard and announces to his audience that the use of a hammer is nearly non-existent. I felt like jobbing him then and there.
I am sorry but I don't have much time for most school teachers and I am sorry if I have offended any on here with some of my comments. But in all honesty do they really know all what they they talk about??? In our local four wheel drive club years, we had a Science teacher who was an authority on reptiles and and botany. We were on a trip out west and someone asked him about a particular shrub that was reasonably prevalent in that area. He pipes up and says it was very rare and could only be found in that area. We already knew it was favourite shrub of Alice Springs domestic gardeners. We were able to pull him up on a few other points that he freely gave out.

My teachers at trade school were generally quite good, but I know of a few who I could have "pulled rank" on as a second-year apprentice. That's what happens when you get white box cabinet makers trying to teach solid timber skills.

A few years ago I was talking to a recently retired TAFE teacher who taught cabinet making at Lidcombe TAFE. He asid that students were enrolling with no basic knowledge of how to use hand tools. He meant the sort of stuff most kids learn "mucking around" with tools at home. He said that The TAFE had to create 2 different courses. One for melamine boxes and one for the real stuff.
TT

The TAFE I went to had 2 courses as well, but having different courses only works if you have teachers with the appropriate skills for each one.

I was fortunate enough to be one of the judges of the school students' work at last year's T&WWW show in Sydney, and I can assure you that at least some of the students are learning hand skills at school. Also, I know a couple of high school D&T teachers who are pretty good practical woodworkers.
Fear not, all is not lost.

My Dad was born in 1914 and lost his father in 1917, then about a year later when the eldest boy was nearly old enough to get a job to support the family he cut his toe and died due to the infection. So as Dad grew up he did what he could for his mother and the other 5 kids at home. His twin brother got an Apprenticeship as a Mechanic but Dad only did menial jobs to get by. Then the Depression through the 30s......
OK the scene is set. He then produces me and 4 other siblings and worked in low paid jobs to feed us. He didn't have money to hire tradesmen to do anything so he would have a go himself, and, did quite a reasonable job. He built 2 houses in his time.
When I was old enough I would be his "off sider" doing what ever had to be done. Carpentry, concreting, plumbing and draining, painting, some elementary electrical work, and gardening. He showed me how to use hemp in a plumbing fitting to seal the thread (Its a shame that hemp has gone off the market because it used to perform better than teflon tape)he showed me how to solder sheet metal as well as electrical wires.
He certainly gave me my initial knowledge base, before I got my own Carpentry Apprenticeship.
I think too, that now, fathers are paying others to do general maintenance jobs around their houses rather than doing things them selves and getting their sons(or daughters) to help them.

[QUOTE=chambezio;1865963
I think too, that now, fathers are paying others to do general maintenance jobs around their houses rather than doing things them selves and getting their sons(or daughters) to help them.[/QUOTE]

Thankfully I am one of those asked to do the jobs around the house and be paid for it. My son or daughter get to assist me and hopefully learn a bit. One of my clients asked how I learnt to do the things I do. My reply was by making a lot of mistakes. I learn by trial and error, watching others, asking question and reading this forum.

Yes a lot of skills are dying out. Where I work there is a sash window that needs the cords replaced. A contractor carpenter was shown the job, but he did not know how to do it. No I have not replaced sash cords, but I have seen how it is done and would be prepared to do it knowing there are risks that parts may be damaged when being removed.

Originally Posted by AlexS

I was fortunate enough to be one of the judges of the school students' work at last year's T&WWW show in Sydney, and I can assure you that at least some of the students are learning hand skills at school.

Maybe their Dad's are members on here.....