Thread: Table saw which one, laguna, sawstop and hammar

Originally Posted by bryn23

even if you had a sawstop, the idea of thinking the brake saving your finger should never come into play, always think its dangerous, because it is.

There is a sign that I encountered at the "7 story tree house" tourist trap along I-5 in Tulare, CA.
"This machine has no brain, you have to use your own"
I bought two, one for my shop and one for school. (I wasn't a student at the time.) Both signs hang in a prominent places on the wall.

Yeah I have the same feelings about the Sawstop inviting complacency. I've seen a few YouTubers start doing some downright stupid stuff once they've gotten a SS in the shop. No thanks.

Originally Posted by Trav

I can't quite believe the anti- sawstop vibe going on. I agree that good technique is far more important than new technology. But it's like saying good drivers shouldn't have airbags or ABS in cars. Bad things happen to good people too.

Airbags, ABS and all the other new technology are there just as much (maybe even more so) to protect people from factors out of their control like other road users and poor conditions (and even that is sometimes simply down to people not knowing how to be safe in bad conditions). Table saws don't speed, run red lights or turn without looking, nor are they subject to black ice or hydroplaning conditions.

Sorry, but I'm not having a bar of that argument.

There's plenty of people who've had an accident with a table saw and lost a digit or two. I wonder if they would be so anti- sawstop if it meant they got a finger back.

I wonder what those people were doing to cause it.

I have a Hammer C3-31 combination machine (which includes the equivalent of the K3, I believe) and a Minimax 20 inch bandsaw. In terms of support I have found Felder (Hammer) great and am not-so-impressed elsewhere. So, although the Minimax is a great and very capable machine I would not buy from that supplier again. Consider the supplier and their support before you purchase.

I work primarily in solid timber though I may occasionally cut sheet ply for jigs or for mock-ups of furniture.

This is my third table saw. The first two were basic cheapies although the second was a capable machine with a 300 mm blade. I upgraded the fence and fiddled and fiddled with that one to try to tweak it to perform. It did the job but it took a long time to double-check, double measure to ensure that each cut would be correct.

With the Hammer I set the fence or the cross-cut fence guide block using the built-in scale - perfect every time. No time or timber wasted.

One safety aspect that is overlooked in the SawStop debate is that a sliding table saw like the Hammer is innately safer in one way than any table saw without a sliding table. This is because, to cut, you are standing out of the line of fire, beside the blade instead of in front of it. Because I am always focussing my attention on holding the timber tight against the sliding table fence my hands are always away from that deadly blade. In the rare occasion that the saw does manage to fire a piece of wood off the back of the blade it sails away from me, not into me.

So, I don't intend here to knock SawStop. I like the idea of their technology, anything that saves woodworkers from themselves is a good thing (unless you believe in Darwin Awards), but being cut by the blade is only one of the dangers of a table saw, being speared or blinded by a piece of timber fired by the blade has to be as great, or a greater risk.

The hammer also has a brake to stop the blade quickly when you turn it off - this is important because many (I have been told most but do not have stats) blade accidents happen when woodworkers are too keen to grab their timber after cutting. If the blade takes a while to slow down it can still do serious harm.

If you can afford it buy a Hammer, after all, the cost of trading up machines over time is much greater because second hand machines sell for perhaps half new cost so each trade-up costs a lot. If you can't afford the Hammer at least look for a good saw with a sliding table. I believe SawStop sell one now too.

Whatever you do, buy the best that you can afford at the time. Don't forget second hand - there can be great bargains there. Felder sell second hand and the website aggregators (Machines4you or some such name) do too. I have even seen good gear on Gumtree - on the rare occasion I use that site.

Originally Posted by bueller

Yeah I have the same feelings about the Sawstop inviting complacency. I've seen a few YouTubers start doing some downright stupid stuff once they've gotten a SS in the shop. No thanks.

Agreed. I think there's some youtubers that do the most incredibly risky things on all sorts of ww machines, not just sawstops. I don't think sawstops are the problem there...

I personally like when they are cutting panels with no riving knife, or pushing stuff through past the blade with a finger [emoji15]. What could possibly go wrong...


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Originally Posted by elanjacobs

I wonder what those people were doing to cause it.

I'm sure at least some of them were being very sensible when something completely unexpected happened.



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Originally Posted by Trav

I can't quite believe the anti- sawstop vibe going on. I agree that good technique is far more important than new technology. But it's like saying good drivers shouldn't have airbags or ABS in cars. Bad things happen to good people too.

There's plenty of people who've had an accident with a table saw and lost a digit or two. I wonder if they would be so anti- sawstop if it meant they got a finger back.

Each to their own though. Get a saw that meets your needs. For me, it was a no-brainer to upgrade from a jet to a sawstop. It's a great saw and has a fantastic safety feature. I've got good technique and I don't take chances, but if it saves me once, then it was worth it. If I don't use that feature, I've still got a great saw.

My only gripe with the sawstop is that is has 4" ducting inside the machine. I don't think this is ideal (6 would have been better).

Trav

I have to agree with everything above.

Accidents happen to us all and when or if they do i sure know what saw I want to be using, regardless of it's safety feature I use my sawstop like it hasn't got a brake because blades and brakes aren't cheap but the idea in some people's head this makes me a danger to myself on another machinery is absurd to say the least!

Each to their own I guess

In relation to the original question I've had the Harvey and the sawstop professional and these are both nice saws the SS is by far a nicer build but for half the price you also can't go wrong the Harvey.

I personally don't like the smaller SS because of the tables having Sawstop embossed in them they aren't flat like a cast table is...

SS is about to release some pretty nice add-ons for their range have a look at their site.

Good luck with your purchase either way I'm sure the saw you choose will work right for you!

Originally Posted by Trav

I can't quite believe the anti- sawstop vibe going on.

Believe it. It's prevalent in the woodworking community and it happens EVERY SINGLE TIME someone asks about Sawstop. At some point a few years back it became cool to be so grizzled and hard that you have to hate on Sawstop.

And frankly it's one of the dumbest and saddest things going on in this community now. I have little respect for anyone who participates in it. If someone wants to have a strong opinion about whether or not the brake system should be legally required on saws, that's fine, but to go around telling people, particularly beginners, who are genuinely interested in buying a high end saw that they shouldn't get a Sawstop because of your own selfish bias and desire to seem hardcore is just shameful, and warrants serious self-reflection.

I owned a Sawstop Professional 3HP saw and it was the single best machine (yes, machine, not just table saw) I've ever owned. The only reason I got rid of it was because I moved overseas. It would otherwise have been the last table saw I ever owned. I have a shared shop now, and as soon as I change my living situation again I will buy another Sawstop for my own shop, which will then be the last table saw I ever own. If they release a jointer and a bandsaw I'll buy those as well.

Oh, and in addition to that it won't cut off your fingers.

I tripped the brake on mine three times in two years. None of them were a legitimate finger save, and all three were COMPLETELY my fault and totally preventable if I'd just paid more attention. I got my metal mitre gauge too close to the blade. Be smart, and you'll never trip the brake unless it's KEEPING YOUR FINGERS FROM COMING OFF. Has that part been mentioned?

If you can afford it, buy a Sawstop cabinet saw. You won't be disappointed.

Cheers,
Luke

Nice post Luke,

We all have lapses of constantration or by doing the wrong thing without thinking ahead sometimes.

I'd be quite thankful if a piece of tech saved my finger or fingers from user error.

Looking forwards until its available on other saw machines, including the on the cheaper end of the market.

I've only used cabinet saw's for a limited time as i use panel saws, and i found it unforgiving, as if you didn't know what you were doing, an error could easily happen.

Most of the companies i worked for used panel saws, as you need to be able to cut sheet goods as well.

I believe panels saws are safer from my experience, as you are forced to stand to the side, depending on how long the slide is, and your fingers aren't as close to the blade.

But size is an issue for most workshop's and cost also comes into play.

good to hear the Sawstop is a well built machine.

The SS hate is largely born in the US because of the way the owner went about trying to legislate its compulsory requirement in that country. But he did try and sell the idea to existing manufacturers before he himself produced them and not one of the manufacturers was willing to use the technology which seems strange as anyone would think it was a no brainer so to speak. Perhaps the terms he wanted were the sticking point but I guess we will never know. The US is a very conservative market when it comes to change, there are for instance a lot of woodworkers there who insist that safety is not needed in any field and in particular dust extraction and refuse to acknowledge that anyone other than an American might have some answers they don't have. Woodworkers are very territorial in their belief of products and methods, witness Festool, sharpening hand planes being three that can draw the fangs of many who are regular contributors to social media such as this forum. Perhaps it is the same in other hobbies but I have no experience of that.

More speculation/my observation rather than based on facts.

But I wouldn't be surprised if the resistance to change is further up the line rather than with manufacturers not wanting to change. What I mean by this is due to the current manufacturing situation that we have placed ourselves in where most items are manufactured in a handful of factories, its not cost effective for these companies to restructure their entire manufacturing process to accommodate a relatively small market, combined that with the number of users willing to uptake of new tech it all of a sudden becomes a not very profitable and risky venture. So unless there is a general consensus shift in the preference of woodworkers it is unlikely that woodworking machinery will take any drastic changes in the forseeable future. Just think about the "classic" situation with the 4" dust port, those in the know, know that a 6" is required, those that don't care will think dust collection is unnecessary, so manufacturers cater for this by going in-between.

As a beginner I can't see the logic of claiming a safety feature in one machine would make me careless.
Putting my fingers close to a spinning blade is always going to focus my attention.
Not that I am the safest worker but it sure focuses the attention.

Last week while using a sanding machine with ear protection and not able to hear anything, my wife 'snuck up' behind me. Made me jump. Imagine if I had been on the table saw or SCMS etc?

I know of at least one other woodworker who had a similar experience with someone unfamiliar with workshops walking in behind them and tapping them on the shoulder.

The thing preventing me from buying a Saw Stop is price for a single machine when I need to aquire various.


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In terms of the saws you have listed, as others have mentioned, they fall into different categories. The Fusion is a nice saw but the chances are good you will want to upgrade from it in the future. The big question is what are you making and what tolerances are ok for you. Heavier saws tend to have less vibrations and more robust internals, not to mention larger cast iron table tops. Getting a good cabinet saw or quality slider shifts the errors possible onto the user, not some oddity with the machine. More expensive saws also tend to allow for adjustments for more things so it can be trued up if it's not perfect out of the box or after some use.

I had a similar dilemma a few months ago, after thinking about what I wanted from a saw I shortlisted the Laguna Platinum (dovetail version), Sawstop PCS, and a K3. The K3 fell off the list first because of the floorspace it would require - from the specs and comments people have about it, if you don't mind the price it is an excellent saw. For me though, considering what space I had and the other things I wanted in the garage, it was difficult to fit it in. Added to that, I have a Mr Plywood store about 10 minutes away and a track saw, so breaking down sheet goods isn't too bad. There are other advantages to a slider - but space available wins over most things.

So that left the Sawstop PCS and Laguna. I had a chance to see both in store, I believe there is a Harvey that is nearly identical to the Laguna (just be careful that you're not comparing it to the non dovetail Harvey), so that could be a third option for you. Both machines are very good build quality wise. In the end I went with the Sawstop PCS because it is better finished than the Laguna by a wee bit and the 'optional but you should totally get it' mobility kit for the PCS is brilliant. There is also the much debated safety feature on the PCS - my view is, I use push sticks and keep my digits far from the blade, safety brake or not, but if an accident does happen (it's why they're called accidents), I'd be much happier if I didn't lose a finger or two or three. Yes there is a price increase - it'll be up to you if it's worth it, but it was for me. In addition all of the Sawstops come with proper riving knives and the blade guard has anti kickback pawls that don't mark your work pieces.

I have zero regrets with the PCS after using it for a few months. The fit and finish is impeccable. The manual is comprehensive. The only mistake I found was on the blister pack containing the fittings for the fence rails, the numbers and descriptions on the blister pack don't match the numbers and descriptions in the instructions. Which isn't too much of a deal since the type of bolt/nut/washer is mentioned in the instructions anyway. It was a pleasure to put together the saw. I did have to adjust the table so that the mitre slots were square to the blade, which is where I ran into my one frustration - one of the table bolts was on super tight and needed an impact wrench to undo. Yes, that was the extent of my problems. First world problems right? The table adjustment method is excellent, no need to bang around with a mallet, the table top is set on a pivot point, and there are screws that allow the table to moved left or right. Tighten up the 4 table bolts after adjusting the side-to-side screws and jobs done. This is the type of thing that has impressed me with PCS, someone sat down and really did have a think about how things could be done better from other saws. Blade changes are super easy, changing from the actually usable blade guard to a riving knife is quick. As can be expected, the blade height and angle settings are held spot on.

So what does the PCS have to do with you? Well, if you can swing it, I'd say look at the PCS over the contractor saw. The wings are cast iron on the PCS and you get the upgraded fence as well.

Luke,

You just made everyone's argument against you.

"I tripped the brake on mine three times in two years. None of them were a legitimate finger save, and all three were COMPLETELY my fault and totally preventable if I'd just paid more attention."

Now that you are living in Washington state and should be in the Southern California area you are welcome to visit my shop any time. Just please don't ask to use my table saw. If you need something cut, I'll be more than happy to do it for you.