Thread: Is a tradesman a craftsman?

Originally Posted by CHJ

Just remembered, as an apprentice made some parts of a guidance system that flew from the Woomera range, I assume it landed where it was intended.

Sorry for hyjacking yet another thread .

Chas

On the ground??

Al

Originally Posted by ozwinner

On the ground??

Al

One round to you , I don't think Blue Streak ever made it to the moon.

Touche.

At least you have the weird sense of humour that will endure on this BB.

Al

Originally Posted by ozwinner

Touche.

At least you have the weird sense of humour that will endure on this BB.

Al

Many have suffered over the years
Chas

I notice that a few posts mention the dodgy work done by some tradesman. Most people could relate to that. A friend of mine had a house built by some alledged tradesmen and there was hardly a vertical or square wall in the place.

I have been fortunate to come up against some very good ones too. We had a tiler do some work in a house and I was very impressed by the skillful, efficient and careful way that he went about his work (or in his case, his craft). I have recently been working on a house. The builder in charge has impressed me greatly with the skill and care that he puts into his work. So credit where it is due. Undoubtedly there are some bad tradesmen out there but there are also some good ones. The trick is to tell the difference before you let them do up their tool bag on your property.

The difference I see is.........

A Tradesman is able to foresee a stuff up and maybe avoid it, if s/he doesn't is able to cover it up.

A Craftsman is still able to forsee a stuff up and maybe avoid it, ifs/he does not avoid it will start again and do it right!

As usual I expect to be flamed for the following but also as usual I cant help but say it as I see it.

I am sure there are exceptions such as patternmakers, instrument makers and perhaps the odd carpenter but (and it is a very big but) The vast majority of Tradesmen simple "Trade" their skilled or semi skilled labor for money. If they wer not payed they would not work. If you gave them tools and materials and time but not money they would not work. Those I hase met just dont give a SH1%!
A Craftsman needs to be payed to work but if money was not the issue and he was supplied with all the other requirements he would work and work and work because he does for the love of creating something of beauty and integrity. in fact I think some of us might prefer not to be paid and just work if this was possible.


Ross
Ross

Originally Posted by Different

A Craftsman needs to be payed to work but if money was not the issue and he was supplied with all the other requirements he would work and work and work because he does for the love of creating something of beauty and integrity. in fact I think some of us might prefer not to be paid and just work if this was possible.

Ross

I do not purport to be a Craftsman, just aim to do my best and of a quality that others are willing to ask for more, I did however manage to get somewhere near your ideal vision of existance when I engineered early retirement at 52 with enough monetory compensation for me to do my own thing. The result of the first aim is of course that there has never been enough hours in the day ever since.

Chas

Originally Posted by TheDad

The difference I see is.........

A Tradesman is able to foresee a stuff up and maybe avoid it, if s/he doesn't is able to cover it up.

A Craftsman is still able to forsee a stuff up and maybe avoid it, ifs/he does not avoid it will start again and do it right!

I think that that is an important distinction. Economic necessity mostly forces tradesman to work to a schedule which does not allow the redoing of jobs. I do not own any wood fillers. If a joint does not fit perfectly I will redo it in some way until it does. But then I get the money to purchase meat and milk elsewhere. I wonder what I would do under different circumstances and that is one reason why it is unlikely that I would enjoy working full time at my craft. I suspect that it may become my trade.

Originally Posted by Different

As usual I expect to be flamed for the following but also as usual I cant help but say it as I see it.

I am sure there are exceptions such as patternmakers, instrument makers and perhaps the odd carpenter but (and it is a very big but) The vast majority of Tradesmen simple "Trade" their skilled or semi skilled labor for money. If they wer not payed they would not work. If you gave them tools and materials and time but not money they would not work. Those I hase met just dont give a SH1%!
A Craftsman needs to be payed to work but if money was not the issue and he was supplied with all the other requirements he would work and work and work because he does for the love of creating something of beauty and integrity. in fact I think some of us might prefer not to be paid and just work if this was possible.


Ross
Ross

I suspect that you are correct in saying that many tradesman work only for the money and not for the love of the job. But I do not think that working for money to be dishonorable of itself. It becomes a problem when the quality of the work offered for sale reflects the attitude. For example in a house I helped build the braces on the roof trusses hardly fitted accurately. The attitude was that gaps did not matter so long as a gang nail plate would hold them together.

I come home from work (where I get paid). I can then work on my craft without the need to consider time or cost to any great extent. I doubt I would consider this craft worthwhile if time and money where a big consideration. I know that there are excellent craftsman who also make a living from their craft but I do not know how they manage it. They must be a lot better men (or women) than me.

"there are excellent craftsman who also make a living from their craft but I do not know how they manage it"

These are the people who have developed their own niche marketing!!
Generally this often means some form of specialisation.
Consider just a few crafstmen who most of us must recognise, such as,
Rocker sells plans.
Colen Clenton sells squares etc
Neil sells polishes
etc etc
Apologies to those who I have left out!

I don't want to say that I told you so, but the point I made early on - that we are in danger of attempting to distinquish between craftmen and tradesmen on quality grounds - is being borne out by all responses since. The other point I wish to (re-) emphasize is that there is a danger of doing so on subjective grounds.

There are tradesmen who work to a high level of skill, and because they do so we call them craftsmen.

There are tradesmen who work to a high level of skill, within the parameters set by time constraints, and we might call them craftsmen - it just depends on the time constraints.

There are tradesmen who work to a high level of skill, within the parameters set by budgetary constraints, and we might call them craftsmen - it just depends on the budgetary constraints.

There are tradesmen who sell their services at a rock bottom price and provide a rock bottom service, and we call them tradesmen, or something else that cannot be repeated here ( :eek: ).

And there are tradesmen who sell their services at a rock bottom price and produce something that is extraordinary in terms of value, and we should call them craftsmen.

The point is that we want to use the term craftsmen to connote an excellence of service, given to someone that provides that definable quality at the top of the class. But there are many classes of service, and we need to keep in mind that it is just as possible to provide excellence at the lower budgetary ranges.

A "craftsman" is a trademan who has mastered their craft and produces a level of work that reflects this.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek I generallyagree with your summation but,
A "craftsman" is a trademan who has mastered their craft and produces a level of work that reflects this.
Ought reasonably be expanded to include "non tradesmen" who have mastered their craft

Bob

I agree with you (I'd like to believe that I am a craftsman in my profession); however, we are referring here (I assume) to hand work (and if did this in my profession I would be struck off!!! :eek: ).

Regards from Perth

Derek