Thread: Trying hand-cut dovetails - dovetail saw western vs japanese?

Hi Dom
I have no idea how hard it is to sharpen a Japanese saw.
But "conventional" western wisdom could easily be "it's too hard" purely on account of needing a type of file (a feather file) that is only available in Japan.
However, my core point is that if you really like the Japanese saw but are looking to switch to a western saw purely so that you can learn to sharpen it, why not invest the time in learning to sharpen a Japanese saw?

BTW
I read somewhere that even people who regularly hand-cut dovetails -- people like Garrick Hack and Chris Gochner -- only need to sharpen their DT saws every 4 or 5 years.
So for me even a disposable Japanese saw blade is likely to last a very long time.

Maybe this is a question that should be posed on the forum. How long does a Japanese saw stay sharp?

Originally Posted by DomAU

Started this box and dovetails are coming quicker and neater. That's 10 of 100 done!

Attachment 410168

Lovely crisp dovetails, Dom, well done.


Graeme

Originally Posted by ian

How long does a Japanese saw stay sharp?

Absolutely forever.

I have a Ryoba that is used to cut down redgum logs into hunks. I also use it for trimming back the fig every year and the Chinese Empress at the front.

It has done an astounding amount of work.

The Kataba and Dozuki are the same (but not in yard use!). My original Z-Saws from Carbatec lasted 3 years of hard daily use (from Sept '12) and my "new" Nakaya and Gyocucho branded ones have lasted since Jan '15 without replacing the blade (I have spares!). The blades are still sharp.

The Kataba and Dozuki are used every single day. They, along with a couple of smaller Japanese chisels, the surgeons scalpel (10B's) and Flush trim saw (still original from Sept '12) are my every-day-use tools.

Replacement blades are $20 from memeory - from ToolsFromJapan.com

p.s. This thread has twisted my arm (off!!!!) and I've just shelled out for some Veritas Dovetail saws and three of those low angled planes this week. Have to admit, thats some sexy looking gear...

Originally Posted by ian

..... "conventional" western wisdom could easily be "it's too hard" purely on account of needing a type of file (a feather file) that is only available in Japan.....

Too true on point 1, Ian. I'm definitely guilty of the 'looks too hard, so I won't even try' mentality on this one. So many things I've reckoned are 'too hard' turn out to be far easier than anticipated, once I decide to make an honest effort..
You're wrong on point 2, though. Feather files are (were!) easy enough to obtain here. I admit I don't use one very often, so they last a long time - probably 10 years since I last bought one!

Originally Posted by ian

..... I read somewhere that even people who regularly hand-cut dovetails -- people like Garrick Hack and Chris Gochner -- only need to sharpen their DT saws every 4 or 5 years.
So for me even a disposable Japanese saw blade is likely to last a very long time....

If they're using standard saws, all I can say is they must be happy to work with dull saws for a long time. I'm sure I wouldn't use my saws any more than either of those blokes, but they get a light sharpen at least once a year. Perhaps they use a lot of Poplar for their demos, which is a very soft & easily-cut wood, & perhaps I'm a fuss-pot, but I do like my saws sharp, just like any other cutting-tool!

Actually, asking how long any saw stays sharp is like asking the proverbial 'how long is a piece of string? question, isn't it? I'm sure you could take a saw & some 'standard' woods and count the number of strokes it takes to cut an inch deep, make another couple hundred strokes & count again, repeat many more times until the saw is dull, & plot your results on a graph, then come up with a figure of so many kilometers of travel it took to dull it. It might be useful for comparing saws against each other, but it wouldn't have much relevance to everyday saw use, because most of us use our saws intermittently, in a range of woods. Keeping track would be nigh on impossible The only system I've come up with is if a saw feels slow & lacks bite, it's almost certainly dull. A stroke or two of the file usually makes a world of difference!

Despite my dislike of throwaway anything, I always keep a hardpoint saw in my ute (never know when you might stumble on a stash of useful stuff sitting on the kerb for council cleanup week, or whatever). When that saw gets dull, which is sometimes far quicker than I'd like, thanks to hidden ironmongery in my 'finds' , I chop it up for scrapers or something, to salve my conscience. These saws can hit the odd nail without completely losing the plot the way one of my 'good' saws would, though of course they won't chop through nails all day without letting you know they ain't happy. But even without nails, they do slowly dull, and I find it's like carbide tablesaw blades vs the old steel blades; they drop off slowly, and I don't notice for a long time, 'til one day I realise I'm working too hard, pushing the wood through the saw or the saw through the wood (whichever is the case), and it finally dawns on my dim brain that I'm working with a dull saw!

Cheers,

As an apprentice I was perfectly happy to sharpen DT saws. My eyesight these days prevents me from even trying. And do you think I can find anybody capable of doing a decent job? Not on your Nelly. The last "expert" that had a go gave me back more cows and calves than you'd get on a dairy!

Originally Posted by rustynail

....And do you think I can find anybody capable of doing a decent job? Not on your Nelly. The last "expert" that had a go gave me back more cows and calves than you'd get on a dairy!

I know the feeling, Rusty - it was what drove me to learn for myself. Sounds like I need to pay you a visit - not to show you how to sharpen a saw, but to show you what a good headband magnifier can do.......

Cheers,

Originally Posted by ian

I read somewhere that even people who regularly hand-cut dovetails -- people like Garrick Hack and Chris Gochner -- only need to sharpen their DT saws every 4 or 5 years.

Wow. I have to ask who would say such a thing. I can notice a marked difference in a dovetail saw after one casework project. I can't imagine going a year without sharpening a saw, much less four or five, and Garret Hack probably cuts ten times as many DTs as I do.

I think the woods used in the US vs Australia might have a significant bearing on the longevity of a sharpening.

DomAU's dovetails are magnificent. I love them. It has gripped me into action!!!

Currently I use a Leigh D4R, which is fast, but I love the massive look of his dovetails and their meaty proximity.

I'm buying a 3-kit of Veritas dovetail saws ( Drill Bit & Saw Sharpening - Lee Valley Tools - and a LOT of other things!!!) and want to quikly (if possible?) know what files I should buy to obtain optimum sharpening ( Drill Bit & Saw Sharpening - Lee Valley Tools )

Apologies for dropping into the thread like this, but it seems pertinent given the direction and DomAU's productively (and need of sharpening soon )

Originally Posted by ian

I think the woods used in the US vs Australia might have a significant bearing on the longevity of a sharpening.

Dunno, Ian. The woods I would be working with for dovetailing wouldn't be much different from Walnut or Cherry, and our softwoods are pretty near identical to Nth. American softwoods. Hoop pine is almost identical to Eastern White pine, Camphor is very similar to Yellow poplar, Red cedar is softer than any of them, & so on.

I would just like to try one of these saws that has been used regularly for several years without a visit from a file...

Cheers,

Originally Posted by woodPixel

.....I'm buying a 3-kit of Veritas dovetail saws ( Drill Bit & Saw Sharpening - Lee Valley Tools - and a LOT of other things!!!) and want to quikly (if possible?) know what files I should buy to obtain optimum sharpening ( Drill Bit & Saw Sharpening - Lee Valley Tools )......

WP, to save duplication, have a read of this thread. It will direct you to some tables on the web that match file sizes, & there's some useful duscussion about saw files in general.
Or if you're impatient, go straight to the "saw filing treatise"...

Cheers,

Cheers,

Good discussion thanks everyone. I still haven't quite decided on saws but will likely either go with bad axe or lie neilson (less than half the price but milled not folded spine and, 0.015" plate so maybe too thin? And no personalisation ).

On a side note I made that box into a marking knife box. Knives are held in place by lid and don't move up/down or side to side when lid is closed . Finished with all edge tools no sanding (first for me!).

20170414_210849.jpg

20170414_210756.jpg

Now to cut more dovetails!

Chears, Dom

Nice box Dom, and nice knives!

One other dovetail saw for serious consideration is the Gramercy. It is different from all others on your list. The plate is 0.018" and shallow - a depth of 1 1/4". Who needs more? It is very light, and encourages a very light touch. 19 tpi but cuts fast. Just a wonderful dovetail saw.



Here is a full review (with a comparison to a LN, IT, and Wenzloff) ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolRev...vetailSaw.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

Thanks Derek,

Looks interesting. Will give it some serious consideration.