Thread: Trying hand-cut dovetails - dovetail saw western vs japanese?

Originally Posted by ian

...... If you can't saw a straight vertical line, the saw won't help you. (BTW, your dovetail examples suggest you know how to saw in a straight vertical line.)

Ian, I heartily agree with all of your points, but especially that one. I don't think there's much doubt Dom is no raw beginner, but if my trying to use a pull-saw for fine work after 40 years of exclusively using push-saws is any guide, he might strike a bit of a learning-curve.

Of course, one would expect a high-end saw to come out of the box set up to cut straight, so as pointed out previously, if you are getting curved cuts, then it's unlikely the saw that's at fault. OTH, if you've just sharpened the saw and it's your first or second attempt, it quite likely IS the saw....

All this saw-talk has given me an idea. If we have a Forum stand at the TWWW show this year, I might bring along a few saws that demonstrate different plate thicknesses, hang-angles, tooth profiles, etc. We need things to get people to stop & talk to us.....

Cheers,

Thanks Derek, IanW, Luke and Ian,

So it sounds like any good quality saw will do the job equally well and it comes down to feel in the hand, sharpening, and then personal preference regarding looks.

Since I haven't had a response from Bad Axe yet, I'm pretty much set on getting the Lie Nielson thin-plate saws. I'll play with these, play with sharpening etc and if I feel the need down the track I'll invest in some more boutique saws; if I haven't decided that Western saws aren't for me altogether.

I'm sure the Lie Nielsen have just as high a chance at suiting my as yet unknown preferences as any other so I may as well save a few coins for now.

Thanks again. Sorry about my indecisiveness on this!

Originally Posted by DomAU

.......So it sounds like any good quality saw will do the job equally well and it comes down to feel in the hand, sharpening, and then personal preference regarding looks.....

Ye..ep!

Originally Posted by DomAU

....... Sorry about my indecisiveness on this!....

No apologies needed, as I see it. There has been a good discussion, useful points raised, & you are probably feeling a bit better about splashing out - what's not to like?

Cheers,

Maybe there needs to be a dovetailing competition!

Come up with the most outrageously and unnecessarily complex confabulation as an actual box or object (art).

Rules are it must be 100% hand cut with no sandpaper.

Pencils, chisels, markers and planes only.

The only exception being for a turned object, but they must be tool finished, no sandpaper.

Originally Posted by IanW

Of course, one would expect a high-end saw to come out of the box set up to cut straight, so as pointed out previously, if you are getting curved cuts, then it's unlikely the saw that's at fault. OTH, if you've just sharpened the saw and it's your first or second attempt, it quite likely IS the saw....

I can't quite agree with you on this
if you are still learning how to sharpen a DT saw, a curved cut is the result of a "fault" in the sharpener, which manifests as a poor cut, it's not the fault of the saw per see ...

Originally Posted by ian

I can't quite agree with you on this
if you are still learning how to sharpen a DT saw, a curved cut is the result of a "fault" in the sharpener, which manifests as a poor cut, it's not the fault of the saw per see ...

You mis-read me Ian. If you re-read what I wrote, you may see I'm saying the same as you, just a little indirectly....

It was meant to be a little caution to anyone joining the arcane world of saw sharpeners. I doffs me hat to anyone who consistently gets it right from the first try, particularly tooth-setting. You might think that the pliers-type sets would be the most consistent method of setting devised, but they aren't, in most beginners hands & certainly weren't in mine! After a bit, I got the rhythm of it, and was able to produce a consistent squeeze. Placing the plunger on the same spot on each tooth is also critical, imo. Then things started to improve dramatically, & these days, I can usually set & sharpen a saw & expect it to cut straight 'off the file'. Like any hand tool operation, it takes practice to become really slick, but it's well worth persisting. I read somewhere, a long time ago, that even a not-so-well-sharpened saw cuts better than a dull one. It's true......

Cheers,

Originally Posted by woodPixel

Maybe there needs to be a dovetailing competition!

Come up with the most outrageously and unnecessarily complex confabulation as an actual box or object (art).....

I'm not one for competitions, WP, got too many darn things on the go, but the sky's the limit if you've got the time & patience. Here's one for you to think about: The most complex set of dovetails I've seen, on a smallish box, had the playing-card symbols (hearts, diamonds, spades & yes, even the clubs!) as 'pins'. They were slightly stylised, to keep the connecting bits from getting too thin, and a couple weren't quite perfect, but it was still a very impressive tour de force of woodworking!

Cheers,

Dom, I wouldn't necessarily view the Lie Nielsen saw as something inferior. I had one for a while and it was a damn nice tool. I ultimately gifted it, but not for lack of appreciation or disappointment, I just got a different one. I think you'll be extremely happy with what you get.

The ultimate satisfaction IMO comes from making them. Only four parts back, blade, handle and screws - simple.

Originally Posted by rob streeper

The ultimate satisfaction IMO comes from making them. Only four parts back, blade, handle and screws - simple.

You won't get no argyments from me on that, Rob, but if every woodworker became a saw-maker, there wouldn't be any saw-buyers, would there?

I've been pretty low-key with saw-making this last 12 months or so. I've made a few to order, and a couple of 'experimental' ones for myself, but have been much busier using & enjoying them, for a change. But I'm still looking forward to getting my paws on some tapered plate to make that magnum opus D77 clone.....

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

I've been pretty low-key with saw-making this last 12 months or so.

Me too.

Originally Posted by IanW

I've made a few to order...

My production has been nil.

Originally Posted by IanW

But I'm still looking forward to getting my paws on some tapered plate to make that magnum opus D77 clone.....

Cheers,

My schedule should start clearing up in June or July, only a year late.

Cheers,
Rob

Be careful about reading some of the above comments.
You will end up possibly having a saw habit.
Some of these gentlemen may seem to be harmless.
But if you dig a little deeper, it gets very scary very quickly.
I myself have now been diagnosed with un set fleem saw disability making crones disease.
No cure

Cheers Matt

Well I've ordered a Lie Nielsen tapered dovetail, tapered carcass and thin-plate 16" tenon saw. Looking forward to trying them out when they arrive. Hopefully I can cut a decent dovetail after a few attempts.

Also ordered a few saw files and a Veritas saw file holder for when the time comes to try my hand at sharpening.

Do people typically make their own saw holders for sharpening, or buy something like the Gramercy saw holder?

Originally Posted by DomAU

Do people typically make their own saw holders for sharpening, or buy something like the Gramercy saw holder?

It sounds like you aren't struggling, so I'd just buy something. Having the adjustable angle is nice.

Ultimately, however, I think sharpening a saw should be like honing a plane iron. You should aim for freehand. If you're toothing or retoothing one that's a different story though.

I know one forum member who restores and retooths a lot of old saws who uses a Veritas. Not sure what the other sawmakers on here are using.

For two of your saws it's obsolete, given that they're rip profile saws.