Thread: Trying hand-cut dovetails - dovetail saw western vs japanese?

Dom, I suspect that many Western saw users, like myself, began with a dozuki and came to prefer a Western saw for dovetails, among other joinery cuts.

I can use the saws interchangeably - both do a great job with experience. I prefer the Western saw because it is more aggressive and cuts faster. This aids accuracy as well. I will turn to a Japanese saw (with its high tooth count) for very delicate cuts where the finish is all important.

Regards from Perth

Derek

p.s. Your dovetails to date are excellent. Fast learner!!

Like Derek I've gone from using a Dozuki to a western saw but now days will select a saw on the basis of the thickness of the material to be cut.

I'm not sure about Bad Axe saws, but starting the cut with a western saw can be much more difficult that with a dozuki.

In terms of starting on a Western saw adventure, I am loath to recommend any saw more expensive than the molded spine offerings from Lee Valley. The price / value proposition of the LV saws is unbeatable. I suggest you start with the 14 TPI standard dovetail.

Only after you have tested the limits of the LV saw would I suggest investigasting a saw from one of the current premium makers.




BTW, in addition to a pair of LV carcass saws, I have three LN saws and two by Mike Wenzloff.
one of my next two saw purchases will be LV's fine DT saw.

Thanks Derek and Ian.

I'll definitely give a western style dovetail saw a chance as I'd certainly like to go this route if I can get good results.

Yes, the LV saws look like amazing value for the quality of cut from what I read. I know I'll want one of the premium maker saws at some stage so I figure I should just cut to the chase. On the other hand the lv would allow me to figure out what I really want in a saw (s) and allow me to try sharpening without feeling like I'm going to destroy a really expensive premium saw. That might be the smart way to go.

Thanks.

Firstly, congratulations on your first hand-cut dovetails. You'll find that with practice you'll work more quickly, and it's probably quicker to do them by hand than faff around setting up a jig.

I've also gone from using a dozuki to a shop-made western style dovetail saw, and as Derek says, both will do a good job. However, I like the western style saw because the weight of the brass spine does all the work, allowing you to concentrate on cutting straight.

I haven't used the Bad-axe or Lee Valley saws. Lee Valley have an excellent reputation, and their saw looks like excellent value. Personally, I'd go for the 20 TPI version. The things I'd look for in a dovetail saw are the weight of the spine, thinness of the kerf, number of TPI (more the better) and comfort of the handle. The horn on top of the handle isn't just ornamental; it helps support the saw, so that you can cut accurately without having to grip too tightly.

Enjoy your dovetail cutting. Just out of interest, do you cut pins or tails first?

Originally Posted by AlexS

Firstly, congratulations on your first hand-cut dovetails. You'll find that with practice you'll work more quickly, and it's probably quicker to do them by hand than faff around setting up a jig.

I've also gone from using a dozuki to a shop-made western style dovetail saw, and as Derek says, both will do a good job. However, I like the western style saw because the weight of the brass spine does all the work, allowing you to concentrate on cutting straight.

I haven't used the Bad-axe or Lee Valley saws. Lee Valley have an excellent reputation, and their saw looks like excellent value. Personally, I'd go for the 20 TPI version. The things I'd look for in a dovetail saw are the weight of the spine, thinness of the kerf, number of TPI (more the better) and comfort of the handle. The horn on top of the handle isn't just ornamental; it helps support the saw, so that you can cut accurately without having to grip too tightly.

Enjoy your dovetail cutting. Just out of interest, do you cut pins or tails first?

Thanks Alex,

Yeah, the LV are certainly excellent value at about 4-5 times cheaper than a bad-axe!

I have been cutting the tails first then using them to scribe the pins and cut those. I imagine cutting the pins first would be more difficult but have never tried it (nor do I intend to atm).

Oh, and Derek, thanks for your/Chris Vespers super thin marking knife! It works great for those narrow pins! Really glad I picked one up recently. And only just thin enough for some.

Hi Dom

Thanks for the kind words.

If you are considering a Lee Valley dovetail saw, I'd recommend the 14 tpi, not the 20 tpi. I like the 20 tpi for thin boards (1/4" and under), but the 20 tpi is better for the dovetailing you will do for drawers. These saws have a 14 degree rake, which is very relaxed, and much lower than the average dovetail saw (typically 0 - 4 degrees rake). It transcribes to easy starting but also slower cutting than an aggressive saw (with vertical rake). The 20 tpi would be too slow in hardwood.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Great thanks Derek.

What plate thickness and set do you think would be best when cutting fine English dovetails in 15mm to 20mm hardwood? I imagine a thinner kerf would be better but at some point a push saw would become too flexible / fragile right? I assume too little set could result in binding?

Have to agree with Derek re. the two LV dovetail saws. I have both the 14tpi and 20tpi, but in hardwoods of 10mm thickness and upwards I'd reach for the 14tpi every time. The 20tpi might have uses in softer/thinner stock, but mine rarely gets an outing.

Until you become very practiced in using western saws for this work, I doubt you'd see much benefit in a far more expensive saw. The LV handles can be a matter of personal preference - they fit my hands just fine, but some folks don't get on with them, The one variable which might be worth exploring is a saw with variable rather than fixed pitch to aid in starting the cut? Not sure who still makes these though. I thought there was an LN version, but it appears to be no longer available. Not sure if LV ever went down this route? All this being said, I still have a soft spot for an ultra thin plate small dozuki saw I picked up somewhere which literally just takes out the finest pencil line - although I've never found a coping saw blade fine enough to go down the cut and saw out the waste, so it makes for more chisel time......

Dom

This is just my opinion: stay away from the thin-plate saws. They are for the experienced only. They are much more vulnerable to being damaged (kinked) in the hands of the inexperienced. And, frankly, I doubt that you would find a difference in the results anyway. The thin-plate saws will, of course, saw a thinner kerf, which is less effort, and it will leave a marginally (!!) narrower kerf. It would be no smoother - that is a feature of the set.

I would also recommend that you leave the variable toothed saws alone. I have one and dislike it. They restrict you to starting the cat at the end of the plate, which may not always be practical (and starting in the middle is where the coarser teeth lie, which would make them harder to start).

Regards from Perth

Derek

Ive done all of mine with the Nakaya Eaks Dozuki, but Ive found it very hard as the blade can easily try to follow the grain. Its very annoying.

Looks like Ill be ordering the LV 3 saw kit and give them all a crack....

DomAU, I had a closer look at the photos..... Are those artfully arranged LV tools, ever so casually placed, just to make me envious

Originally Posted by woodPixel

DomAU, I had a closer look at the photos..... Are those artfully arranged LV tools, ever so casually placed, just to make me envious

Haha. No, it's just that there are so many of them it's hard to get them all out of the shot like herding cats. hahaha

Derek's comment on thin blades is most relevant. They tend to have a mind of their own when it comes to course/hard grained timber. Can be very annoying in sloping grain.