Thread: Vice options

It's important to point out that what you're talking about doing is simply creating an end vise by using what is more appropriately called a front vise, even though you've put it on the end of the bench. You're achieving the same goal, which is lateral clamping of long boards for planing (right?).

I had the setup you described and have since switched to an end vise, so I think I can comment on the differences pretty well. The end vise has many advantages, and a couple of abstract disadvantages, in my experience.

Advantages:

First, an end vise still has a vertical clamping surface similar to what you're planning to do. The difference, however, is that the clamping surface is more centralized along the length of the bench. This puts the torque associated with working on anything that may be clamped in this position closer to the middle of the bench, which is more stable, particularly on a small bench which is made of pine, or in other settings where the bench may be low mass. Obviously, if rocking becomes an issue, you can move your work to the front vise, but it's still a disadvantage worth noting.

Second, an end vise has the screw running right through the middle of it, and the screw travels almost immediately adjacent to the plane along which the clamping force is applied and transferred through the dogs. This prevents the vise from wracking, which prolongs its life, reduces the required clamping torque, and prevents it from sticking in the clamped position and having to be un-wracked in order to get it to wind out. If you move forward with your plan to convert a storebought front vise to an end vise, you will not have this problem at first, but, as time goes by, you will begin to notice it until it ultimately begins to drive you crazy. Although this is arbitrarily listed as the second point, this is probably the most significant advantage of an end vise.

Third, an end vise typically has multiple dogs or dog holes in the same line. If you space these dogs at a closer interval than the holes in your bench, you can minimize the amount of winding in and out you have to do. Sounds like a small thing but you'll begin to appreciate not having to wind out your vise 5 or six inches to clamp a board. They have a tendency to be just the right length to make you do it EVERY time...

Disadvantages:

First and foremost, an end vise usually requires some kind of construction. I was lucky enough to have someone with a lot of experience help me build mine from scratch, but even with one of the kits you kind of need to be precise and know what you're doing.

Second, an end vise is probably more costly and time consuming in most scenarios.

Happy to elaborate on any of that, but I highly recommend an end vise. If you stick with woodworking long enough, you will wish you had it, ultimately upgrade to it, and wish you'd never wasted your time.

That said, I would still do the double row of dogs with the front vise. Turn yourself (or get someone to do it) some wooden dogs that are small enough to rotate. This will allow you to clamp round or oddly shaped objects using four dogs instead of two.

Hope that helps,
Luke

An excellent reply Luke - obviously coming from a base of experience and well set out.

I had trouble understanding the first advantage for a while - then realised that the point is that the dogs on the end vise are not at the end of the bench whereas the tall jaw on my proposal is actually out past the end. Then the difference became apparent and it all made sense.

The only point I need clarified is about the double row of dogs mentioned in the last sentence. Does this mean 2 parallel rows with each pair parallel with the front vise jaw?

Now I have to work out whether my bench design will actually accomodate and end vise and, if so, decide whether to fit a front vise at the end as a temporary or hold off until ready to build the end vise.

So many decisions......

Anyhow thanks for your help, you've clarified something that has been bugging me for a while.

I have the Veritas twin screw end vise. The advantages are:

- most work fits between the two vise screws, thus no wracking.

- you can stand centrally, or to either side, of the work when planing etc. More ergonomic and accurate.

- you can use the vice, with dogs, to clamp large jobs resting on the bench.

Thanks for the reply Glen.

Originally Posted by Glennet

- most work fits between the two vise screws, thus no wracking.

I'm not 100% sure but I reckon that Luke was referring to wracking in the vertical plane when using a front vise for clamping long items using the dogs.

Luke can you confirm?

Here's a photo of my front vise. It'll probably rotate itself. Yep. It did. Sorry.

image1 (5).jpg

Pretty basic concept that can be executed with any similar shaped front vise style arrangement, even one on the end of a bench. You just use four dogs instead of two. Allows for securely clamping oddly shaped objects. I mentioned turning your own dogs because you may find yourself in a position where you need a taller or shorter clamping face on them i.e. the difference between clamping a 2" thick chair seat vs a 1/2" small table top.

Hope that helps.

Cheers,
Luke

Originally Posted by labr@

I'm not 100% sure but I reckon that Luke was referring to wracking in the vertical plane when using a front vise for clamping long items using the dogs.

Luke can you confirm?

Yeah, that's right. Look at the photo of my front vise. Imagine that this configuration was on the end of the bench and you were just using the leftmost row of dog holes to clamp a board for planing. This would cause the right side of the vise to move further forward than the left side and wrack the vise.

Another thing I noticed in hindsight about your dog hole configuration is that the dog holes for your "end" style vise on the right side of the bench are quite far away from the edge. You will regret this. It doesn't make it impossible, but it makes it considerably more difficult to use a fenced plane, like a rebate/rabbet plane or a plow/plough plane when the edge of the board doesn't overhang the edge of the bench. You can solve the problem by "chocking" the board up on a more narrow board or some offcuts, but, again, it's just one of those things you will come to wish you didn't have to do every time.

Check out the build of my bench. It's catalogued under the THE WORK BENCH sub forum. The title is "The Game Changer - or- Two Guys, Two Dogs, and one incredibly heavy workbench." Might be good for inspiration.

I'd link it but I'm super late for dinner and my girlfriend is going to skin me alive...

Have a look through this thread:
Workbench Vises - all the different ones in the same thread - contributions please

Well after all that I think I should at least be assembling the bench with provision for fitting a tail vice.

The problem I now have is knowing how far to put the trestle leg from the end that will take the tail vice. Have looked at various tail vice hardware for sale and some sites showing how to build the tail vice but none of them say how much room is required.

I am guessing that it will be based on thread length less thickness of the timber that the screw is mounted on plus thickness of timber at the jaw face. Is this right and what is a recommended size for the screw? Ones I have seen have the threaded length over 400mm - this seems rather long to me. Is there a reason they are that long?

The Terry Gordon Tail Vise is a retro fit to any bench, and is excellent. No forward planning required. There is only so much pressure you can apply before a borad will warp out of shape, so big mother tail vises are just overkill IMO.

Originally Posted by labr@

...Is there a reason they are that long?

The reason would be so that you can have multiple dogs or dog holes for brass dogs in your tail vise. The tail vise is kind of like a wooden box that slides back and forth with multiple dog holes in the top. So if you have three dog holes at 100mm apart, starting at, say, 50mm from the front of the vise, that's 350mm there, then 25mm to the board at the back of the vise, then another 20mm of board at the back of the vise, and then the "boss" (which is a common name for the thing through which the vise handle slides back and forth) sticks out the remaining 5mm.

All those numbers are made up and poorly thought out (I can already see it wouldn't work), but, ultimately, I believe that is the reason that the vise screw is so long. To accommodate a long tail vise housing with multiple dog holes in it.