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  1. #1
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    Default which chisels for general use.

    Hi folks,

    First time poster, long time stalker.

    I'm just trying to get an idea of what sort of japanese chisels to buy as a first off.
    I'm just taking the tenuous steps down the path of japanese handwork, and will most likely develop a bad tool addiction to expensive blacksmith branded tools.

    I'm looking at getting some Funahiro bench chisels, but have a few questions.
    I need something for general/close to every use, and i'm aware there are a number of different styles of japanese chisels. However $$ dictate what i'll buy to start off.
    I've read that some japanese bench chisels are not all that suitable for dovetailing, as they sides are ground fairly wide, and cause fibres to bruise when chiselling the corners. I know that some blacksmiths make 'dovetail specific' chisels, so should i look at getting some standard bench, and a few dovetail specific to cut in the corners? Or is that being too finicky.

    Until i can scrape together some serious dosh (/convince the mistress that hand tools are more important than home loans) i'll be paring, cutting in joint, (not mortising) with these so yes, just go the bench chisels? or bench + a few specialisations. ie,

    Also if you can help with a few use ideas. Hiramachi chisels are for paring mostly? Chu tataki (hss?) for mortising? and from what i can tell, what some blacksmiths advertise as 'timber chisels' are basically oire nomi with a longer shank/handle to bring it more in line with western bench chisels?
    I actually just read, halfway through posting this, that shinogi (diamond back) chisels are specifically designed for dovetailing, while im guessing they're also quite practical for every other use. I may have answered my own question ha.

    Sorry this is a bit of a rambling post, I guess i would just like some general advise on where i should start, given that i can't afford more than 1 set this year i think. ( and i think ill be waiting half the year for it anyway.)

    thanks for the possible help.
    Lachlan

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  3. #2
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    Welcome Lachlan

    I too was once overwhelmed with the range of Japanese chisels. I spent months reading posts from all over the net and corresponded with the a few more knowledge fellows before I made my first commitment. Here is what I have found useful.

    What are You Paying For?

    When buying a Japanese chisel you are paying for brand name recognition, fit & finish aka "bling" & appropriately forged and tempered steel/iron. Stuart aka schtoo from Tools from Japan makes the point that there is a glass ceiling above which your are going to be assured that you will have a good well performing chisel, their are many very good blacksmiths that make affordable quality tools, Ouchi, Koyamaichi, Fujikawa. However a $500 super rare Tasai chisel will not perform 5 times better then a $100 chisel. The other $400 goes into the bling factor and the bragging rights, nor will it make you a better designer / maker only hard work and time spent at the bench will do that.

    This is a great analogy about blacksmiths:

    Think of blacksmiths as painters for a minute. There are Rembrandt's, Picasso's, and a million other guys you never heard of, but some paintings by relative unknowns are very good by most measures. You can buy good paintings for a lot less than famous paintings. Japanese tools go the same way.
    The moral of the story is do not get hung up on blacksmith names & titles. With a little practice and reading you can get a fair idea of the quality a chisel and the skill of the blacksmith and what to avoid. See http://joinerynotebook.blogspot.com....ing-guide.html for pointers.

    Quotes by Stuart Tierney - an Australian tool seller living in Japan

    Tasai is very well known here in Japan and in the rest of the world. Having not only the 'old guy' still making tools, but his son doing the same is not exactly a common thing. Both of them making a living and doing it with the upper echelon of wood working tools is even rarer, so much so that they're the only ones actively doing it today.

    This might sound all voodoo like, but there's more to read in it than just mystique. Any tool maker still active today has managed to survive a massive downturn in demand for tools over the past 70 years. It's been a game of attrition, and those that are still active are at the top of their game. It's a true golden age for woodworking tools, both here in Japan and in the rest of the world, but here in Japan the process has resulted in there being very few 'name makers' left, and those that are still going are either the best of the best or have another 'hook' that keeps them going.

    In the case of Tasai, it's really a case of both. Best of the best (survival of the fittest) and they have a hook, making what amounts to functional art. And they still make a good living at it, it's amazing.

    But danged they're expensive!
    Koyamaichi and Ouchi are the two user choices you'll find in most tool stores of Western Japan. Plenty of makers out there, but folks who buy their own tools to make a living buy one of these two, and more often than not whatever the local store has on the shelf. More commercialised stores often have Koyama, because that's how they're geared up, mass production of a solid, reliable product.

    Other than these three, of which I am very familiar, there are a few makers from further north in Sanjo like the Fujihiro that Orlando has that are pretty much the same thing, hammered together by a different person but reputation and price is about the same in the end.

    Once you get below the level of these makers (find them, then look at the cheaper stuff in the same store, even mine) and you're starting to make some compromises. There are some gems out there, but generally speaking, you go cheaper you run into corners cut and sub-optimal performance. Most folks will never push their chisels to the limits where the compromises manifest, but it does happen and it makes my life VERY difficult when it happens, because I end up having to justify why xyz chisel costs more, but looks more or less exactly the same.

    That's about all I got right now. Too busy with planes at the moment to worry about much else. After them, saws with Mr. Mitsukawa.
    There is a 'line' at which a Japanese chisel goes from being mediocre and possibly 'almost there' to being a fully fledged, no holds barred professional grade tool.

    If your chisel is under that line, then chances are it will behave badly with chipping, may need quite a bit of effort to get it working and likely won't be a refined as a better chisel. Performance wise, much of the time it'll be just fine which is why a lot of folks have these chisels from 'under the line' and never have a spot of trouble with them. I've got plenty of chisels from 'under the line' and haven't had much trouble with them at all. Aside from a few snapped ones, snapped tips, chipping and typical "Japanese chisels" misbehavior. But they're not always doing naughty things...

    If your chisel is 'above the line' then everything changes. It'll likely look better, but that's not the important part. It'll be made with the right materials, but again that's not the important part. It'll have a better quality handle, hoop and won't need very much effort to make it ready for work, but again that's not the important part.

    The important part is something you can't see and won't always get close to when you're working with the chisel. The really important part is how the chisel was made, the steps it went through in that process and that every step was done by a trusted and reliable maker/method.

    A properly made Japanese chisel is astonishingly tough, tenacious and durable, all while staying sharp for a long time.

    And therein lies the difference. A cheap chisel, you poise the chisel on the wood and wonder if the edge will chip or crack, and takes steps to avoid that happening. You can prolong the point in time where the edge completely fails and needs restoration. A good chisel, you poise the chisel on the wood and know, with confidence, that after hacking out a bunch of wood and doing all kinds of apparently stupid things that Japanese chisels can't actually do, you're going to need to re-sharpen it. But it's going to take a while, and when that time comes all you'll need to do is resharpen not restore.

    There is a difference, a really ^&%$#^%&$^ big difference. But it's one you can't see and one that not everyone can experience.

    If you've only ever used chisels from below the line, and you've run into edge problems at any point in their life, it's because they're below that line. Even these chisels can be at or over the line, but this is an accident rather than by design and it's simply a case of getting a chisel above that line takes time, money and effort.
    This is from soatoz, from http://www.japan-tool.com/

    On Japanese Chisels

    Japanese chisels are normally handmade, so the price tend to be a bit more expensive compared to factory made western chisels to begin with. So think maybe double to get an equal overall quality to western chisels with Japanese. If you spend $40 on a J chisel, it should be half the quality of $40 western chisel. Something like that. The steel itself would probably be harder, but overall fit and finish should definitely be worse.

    Basically you can roughly divide into three what you are paying for, one is the performance, two the finish, and lastly the rarity.

    Unless you are a collector of rare tools, you'd probably want to be paying 70% for the performance 30% for the fit, and none for the rarity.

    The quality of the steel performance greatly differ between more expensive ones and economy tools, probably more so than you would imagine, even when the two use the same material/steel type. It's like food, where two chefs use same materials and ingredients, one can taste much better if the chef's skill is better than the others. So I suggest not to choose just with the steel type. I can't emphasize this enough. Price is basically the easiest factor for you to refer to, the rest you might want to talk with the shop and see what would suit your need.

    There are soft as butter Blue Steel tools and super hard and long lasting White Steel tools (these are of course more expensive, but Kikuhiromaru chisels are just that!!!) The general belief that alloys are longer lasting is not always true. This is true only after certain level, and reversed again after another certain level. Believe it or not, the longest lasting (staying sharp longer, not staying longer after dulled) tools are not the alloys but carbon steel tools.

    So again, basically the price should tell you the quality. $40 blue steel chisels would be softer and shorter lasting compared to $70 white steel chisels. Blue steel is 30% more expensive compared to White steel because it has more expensive non-ferum substances in it, so if you are getting economy tools, I recommend getting white steel tools, because that way you're paying more for the final quality of the tool (skill of the blacksmith) rather than on the raw material.

    Lower quality blue steel tools are not "longer lasting", but "longer lasting after it gets dulled (Kiyhohisa-san put it this way, "Alloys last long with acceptable/bearable sharpness. (我慢できる切れ味が長く続く。Gaman dekiru kireaji ga nagaku tsuzuku.)")", and yet harder to sharpen. Do you see what I mean? This is because the steel molecule is not fine and carbons not dispersed evenly.

    Imagine cement to ceramics. Better tools are like ceramics, finer in the grain (fine carbides = Fe + C) so they are easier to sharpen (the grains/carbides itself cannot be ground, but the grains can/will "fall off". That is what you are doing when sharpening) and can be sharpened to extreme sharpness (smaller pieces to construct the edge), whereas lower quality tools are like cement where there are many larger molecules which tend to break off (again because carbides cannot be cut with stones) resulting as a chip after one strike and doesn't get sharp (again because the carbides cannot be sharpened). So there's a good reason for the expensive price at least maybe up to 15000JPY for a 24mm, after that it starts to become about the fine finish, and after 30000JPY it's about rarity. So unless you go over 15000JPY for 24mm, this is my opinion so there might be many who disagree, but I think every cent is well paid contributing basically solely to the performance.

    I'd have to go deep into metallurgy in order to fully explain to the level where you can actually "feel/imagine" the difference, but in short best tools can be super hard and durable yet very easy to sharpen (very contradicting) while lower quality tools can be hard to sharpen and brittle or soft. This difference, you'd only believe when you actually experience, and to make things complicated, some expensive and famous tools can be like the latter....

    If you work with harder woods, you might want to consider the quality of the chisel a bit, because it is really frustrating to be using soft tools on hard woods. Sometimes it is basically useless, one bang and the edge is gone.

    But then again, skilled smiths always say "Any tool can cut hardwoods, it's the softwoods that's tough." So perhaps for intricate and accurate softwood working requires the very best of the tools.
    DOVETAILS

    Lachlan dovetails hold a certain mystery for woodworkers however they are only one type of woodworking joint and they are less important and less useful then the bread and butter mortise & tenon joint, not to mention lap, bridal and halving joint to only mention a few others. You will cut 20 M&T for every one dovetail joint you cut. You do not need "special" dovetail chisel to cut dovetails, you can simple use skill. By angling the cutting bevel of the chisel you will be able to cut into the tightest dovetails i.e. do not push the chisel into the dovetail at 90 degrees to the work but skew it at about 15 degrees so that the cutting bevel cuts into the corner of the dovetail. Also Allan Peters the famous English maker always said to use the saw to cut your dovetail not the chisel. Saw to the line and you will not need to chisel.

    Remember that tool dealers are in the business of selling you tools, they profit when you buy into the fallacy that you need a specific tool for a specific job. If they had their way they would make you purchase complete sets of bench chisels, complete sets of pairing chisels, complete sets of slicks & complete sets of mortise chisels. Making them very rich and lumping you with dozens if not hundreds of useless chisels that will never get used and will only collect rust. Just look at ebay at complete sets of Japanese chisels come up for sale, often stating that most have never been setup or even used.

    NOMI TYPES (Taken mostly from Stuart Tierney website )

    Oire-nomi This is your basic bench chisel, its closer to a western butt chisel in size. This is what you would use for furniture scale joinery. This is the size you should start with.They come in a range of profiles: The profile is largely an aesthetic choice. However Kaku-uchi oire-nomi have more meat to them and are stiffer chisels where the Shinogi-oire-nomi are less so. As far as I have understood Kaku-uchi oire-nomi are easier to forge successfully because of their shape were Shinogi-oire-nomi profile needs more skill to forge as the lamination tends to warp more because of the irregular profile.

    Kaku-uchi oire-nomi chisels are of a traditional style with a square/box type (Isosoles Trapezoid(US)/Trapezium(UK)) cross section. The sides of these chisels are slightly angled and there is no flat land on the sides of the blade or beveled edges as present in the typically seen ‘oire-nomi’. This is the traditional shape common before the 1950's. Kaku-uchi oire-nomi can be made with more acute angle to be used specifically for dovetails.

    o.ko.rwd_01.jpg

    Mentori oire-nomi literally translates as ‘chamfered’ and in this case creates the often seen ‘bevel edge’ chisel familiar to most woodworkers. Of similar ‘bulk’ to the Kaku-uchi oire-nomi but with upper edges of the blade made beveled. This is the most common profile these days.

    o.mo.rwd.jpg

    Shinogi-oire-nomi diamond back are often called INCORRECTLY ‘dovetail chisels’, the cross section of the blade in these chisels is a mostly triangular shape with small, flat, perpendicular to the back lands on either side. Designed to allow access for adjusting/creating intricate joinery and aesthetic details as found in Japanese furniture and construction, their exceedingly thin, light profile makes them ideal for adjusting joinery, but not so recommended for general chiseling tasks. WARNING - Shinogi-oire-nomi do have landings on the edge and will not fit perfectly into a dovetail. Lachlan you wrote "while im guessing they're also quite practical for every other use" - The answer is no they do not make good general bench chisels and therefore are not a good first choice. They lack the meat and rigidity for general work.

    shinogi_oire_nomi_chisel.jpg

    The other group of Japanese chisel are what Westerners would call pairing chisels, they have slightly longer blades and longer handles, totaling between 300 - 600 mm, they are never meant to be struck only pushed with the palm of your hands. They to come in a range of profiles like Oire-Nomi. As far as I can tell these are not used in the way Westerns would for paring furniture joinery but are in fact used by the Japanese to clean up deep mortise in post and beam temple construction to get into tight spots. Remember Japanese tools developed to solve completely different problems to western tools and were often used in ways completely different to the way Westerners would work, example on the floor versus a work bench.

    usunomi309582.jpgnomi03.jpg

    Tataki Nomi - these are not furniture chisels but are used for heavy large scale building construction joinery. They are extra thick in all dimensions and are meant to be wailed upon with a steel hammer. Japanese craftsman were paid by the number of joints they cut, Tataki Nomi make quick work of big jobs.

    Chu tataki Nomi - Resembling a scaled up oire-nomi, these chisels are just a little bigger in all aspects making them just a little heavier and stronger than the smaller, general purpose oire-nomi. Better suited for those tasks where the chisel will be used with considerable force, but not outright abuse and where hammer blows to drive the edge through the work will the be the rule, not the exception.

    Hiramachi Nomi - The flat neck of these chisels is designed to allow a flush paring cut to be performed without damage to surrounding areas as the rounded, bulging neck of a more common oire-nomi may cause. Thinner in profile than is usual, these chisels are more of a furniture makers chisel than a carpenter’s chisel, but have the basic strength to cope with regular chiselling tasks.

    Here is a link for more information on nomi types:

    http://dougukan.jp/contents-en/index.php?id=228

    HANDLE MATERIAL

    This is a good page regarding nomi handle material. White oak is the best traditional choice as its honest, durable and has good feel.

    STEEL TYPES

    White steel is what I would recommend for nomi, easy to sharpen and takes a keen edge. Unless you are working in very hard woods Ebony, Ironwoods etc then blue steel or HSS is your other options.

    GOOD PLACES TO BUY

    There are lots of online stores, however these two are my recommended. The others seem to charge far more then these fellows for exactly the same items. Also the others are mostly based in the USA and you will have to incur North American shipping costs.

    https://www.toolsfromjapan.com -- Stuart Tierney - an Australian tool seller living in Japan - He sells Ouchi, Koyamaichi, Fujikawa.
    http://www.japan-tool.com/ -- A Japanese fellow who lives in Sydney who sells a broad range of Japanese tools. He sells Fujihiro, Kikuhiromaru, Kiyohisa, Tasia Konobu, Kiyohisa, Funahiro, and Kunikei.

    Ebay

    Do have a look at international ebay.com you can get some real bargains for used Japanese chisel or old new stock. I picked up a new old stock Shinogi-oire-nomi at 42 mm for a mere $60. I would pay well over $130 if bought it from a store.

    http://www.ebay.com/sch/Chisels-/138...apanese&_sop=1

    This is a good advice regarding buying on ebay.

    http://joinerynotebook.blogspot.com....ing-guide.html

    SUMMARY

    My advice is to start with Mentori oire-nomi in white steel with white or red oak handles. You do not need a full set I would start with a 6mm & 12mm, then get a 3mm & 9mm and if you like in time a 42mm these will cover you for a very long time. Postage from Japan is really cheap so buying chisels piecemeal is very doable. Unlike when from purchasing from North America. Also if you buy it a little at a time, the wife will not notice small purchases here and there.

    LINKS

    http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolRev...hiChisels.html
    http://www.woodcentral.com/woodworki...erek-s-chisel/

  4. #3
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    Like a greatest hits summary of chisel posts, thanks; so it's with great trepidation that I add even the tiniest bit of advice: once I obtained all the quality, specialized chisels I needed, I no longer needed anything approaching a set of any kind. So no set of oire nomi here, but lots of single, often one-off custom, special chisels.

    Pam

  5. #4
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    Excellent contribution that Thumbsucker on J-chisels.

    And, if others are not aware of his credentials when it comes to chisels, Thumbsucker has managed the chisel making process from steel selection, through all the heat treatments to the finishing of more chisels than most of us will see in a lifetime (plane blades as well).

    e.g.

    https://www.woodworkforums.com/attach...0&d=1374278501

    https://www.woodworkforums.com/attach...1&d=1384338553

    https://www.woodworkforums.com/attach...5&d=1377859687

    https://www.woodworkforums.com/attach...6&d=1359028574

    Quote Originally Posted by Pam View Post

    ...once I obtained all the quality, specialized chisels I needed, I no longer needed anything approaching a set of any kind.
    +1 on Pam's recommendation on avoiding sets.

  6. #5
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    thanks very much for the help guys.

    Really great info there thumbsucker. I'd read alot of that info, but on different sites, and forums. It's good to see it all presented succinctly as I'd then start looking at tool websites and start getting confused by what was on there that hadn't been covered in what i'd read, and forums are a sucker for personal uses, when really i should be experimenting to find what suits me.

    Based on this, and what you've all presented, I think i'm going to start off with a few stock standard, not too expensive oire nomi that i can get my hands on without too much delay.
    Although i'm probably going to order a couple of items on the side. From Kiyohisa, through japan-tools tsuki-nomi or two, as i could see myself using them down the track.(being the year+ i hear it takes)

    Also.... do you all use chisels to cut mortises? If so, what type.

    And, out of personal interest, is there a specialty chisel that you find yourself turning to time and time again?/would not want to be without?


    Cheers,
    Lachie

  7. #6
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    Kiyohisa look good I like the look of Kunikei. Maybe one day I dream about getting a few of them. However I doubt the cost benefit will be worth it.



    do you all use chisels to cut mortises? If so, what type.
    I us Mentori oire-nomi I just pre drill and pare out the waste. I am however looking at some mortising chisels.

    I think i'm going to start off with a few stock standard, not too expensive oire nomi
    I have been looking at Fujikawa, 'Yasaku' nomi. They are solid chisels at a bargain price. $37 for a 3 mm to $66 for a 48 mm.

    specialty chisel that you find yourself turning to time and time again
    My 42 mm Shinogi-oire-nomi it gives me clean crisp shoulder lines for my joinery & levels surfaces beautifully.

  8. #7
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    For mortising I use a mix of Tasai (4 or 5), Imai (2), and several hiramachi (by Shinto, or something like that) for larger mortises, plus a set (my one set) of western pigstickers. My favorite chisel, one that I would never want to be without, is a 36mm very thin Tasai paring chisel. It makes me feel masterful. My one regret is that I didn't get a couple more at the same time since they've doubled and tripled in price.

    Pam

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    I bought a set of 10 on eBay (link here: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/JAPANESE-...18df128&_uhb=1) a while ago for under $300, the price has gone up to almost $400 now but I've found them to be very good. They arrived sharp and perfectly square (which is more than can be said for the ones I bought at Carbatec for $100 EACH) and hold a fine edge quite well.

    They're definitely not first grade (some small defects in the lamination) but I'd highly recommend them to anyone as a first set.

  10. #9
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    Not so much a special chisel, but used in a different way; at times I use my 48mm Iyoroi* Oire-nomi like a free-hand plane with the bevel down. You get very fine control with the bevel rubbing, but without a chip breaker you have to take care not to impale your leading hand with a long splinter. I wear a glove on that hand...

    My least used chisel is a 18mm Tasai Shinogi-oire-nomi. It sits in its original box and I admire it. I purchased it with the intention of it being a user, but it is such a fine tool that it is beyond my abilities to do justice to it, so I'm leaving it for someone who will. Perhaps a present for someone someday. In the mean time it serves as my benchmark against which I judge my other chisels and woodworking blades, in much the same way that I don't us the chisel that So Yamashita (of Japan Tool) sharpened for me on my Nakayama finishing stone against which I measure how far I have yet to go with my sharpening.

    * Yes, a much maligned Iyoroi, but not all Iyoroi are of the same quality. That blacksmith also makes a quality blade, but with all things you pay more for that quality.

    Neil

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