Thread: Crap chisels

bugger

Sorry to hear of your woes, maybe the previous owner overheated them on the grinding wheel and quenched them in water, perhaps they could be re-tempered.

Failing that maybe they are just crap as you summised. and you got

Sorry to hear of your woes Sheddie. This had me curious because it shouldn't have been hard to find. Easiest thing to check (a matter of 15 seconds) was your posts for an "I'll take it/them", but nothing for chisels.

So then I checked the Marketplace for Nov 2014 back to Jan 2014 and there were only two sets of Japanese chisels advertised. Both by pkjames and both purchased by Evanism.

That makes me wonder if you purchased them on here or maybe it was eBay or Gumtree?

Originally Posted by mark david

Sorry to hear of your woes, maybe the previous owner overheated them on the grinding wheel and quenched them in water, perhaps they could be re-tempered.

Failing that maybe they are just crap as you summised. and you got

No, they hadnt been sharpened before (which i knew).

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Sorry to hear of your woes Sheddie. This had me curious because it shouldn't have been hard to find. Easiest thing to check (a matter of 15 seconds) was your posts for an "I'll take it/them", but nothing for chisels.

So then I checked the Marketplace for Nov 2014 back to Jan 2014 and there were only two sets of Japanese chisels advertised. Both by pkjames and both purchased by Evanism.

That makes me wonder if you purchased them on here or maybe it was eBay or Gumtree?

ihey were all i can find too. I did get them from here but from memory I just pm.d him with my address and got his bsb/acct etc and did the deal. i emptied my mail box so cant check rhere. I could try bank statements and will do that next.

Oh bummer

Maybe some of the other posts may be more helpful.

Originally Posted by Shedhand

No, they hadnt been sharpened before (which i knew).

Not really wishing to play devil's advocate - you mention in the intro that amongst other things that they were "unused". Is it possible that the seller was unaware that there was a problem.

Just a thought.

An unfortunate experience, but not unique for "unused" Japanese chisels. The chisels are not going to be crap. Re-sharpen them carefully, and you will probably not have any more trouble (provided the bevel angle is appropriate for the wood and use).

It is a characteristic of hand forged (good quality Japanese tools) tool steel, that the hardness will increase somewhat over time after they have been quenched and tempered by the blacksmith. This effect, called retained Austenite, usually happens after the tool has been sold, so the owner gets to deal with the "chipping". This process is not continuous, so usually, one or two sharpenings has removed the brittle steel and all's ok after that.

I'd try to explain it (retained Austenite), but my memory is likely faulty, so perhaps best to look it up. Its not something that is guaranteed to happen, nor predictable to a specific passage of time, nor to any particular brand/smith, so this makes it relatively rare. It probably happens more often than we hear about, but I suspect many people just resharpen their tools and when things go well from then on, put the experience down to the learning curve/poor technique?

I have a theory about why early imports of Japanese chisels to North America got such a poor reputation (think Iyoroi) - the edges would chip on first use - the tools would be declared junk, and this "myth" of poor quality was spread and perpetuated and probably still persists. People had not been dealing with hand-forged tools for so long, that they had forgotten what was probably common knowledge among their forefathers.

I used to have a set of instructions that came with Fujikawa chisels, that essentially explained that this might occur and why, and what to do about it.

Anyway, I hope this makes you feels somewhat better, so don't throw your chisels (or money) away!

Ps., abusing edges on a grinder won't cause the steel to get brittle, rather the loss of hardness will only make them dull more quickly- which is why one should never use a grinder (unless its slow speed and water cooled - kind of like a water stone).

I keep meticulous records and all emails. If you think they were bought of the same dude in Sydney that I did, I'm happy to pass on his details.

I think I bought about 40 all up. Most seem really old. It's a hell of a pile. I've found some are easy to sharpen, some get a fantastic edge and others retain the edge for ages.... But the same chisel never has all 3 qualities.



There are a few I'd describe as my favourites. One of the big 40mm jobs is a lethal weapon.

The above commentators are right. I found the best performance started after I'd really sharpened them back a bit with the 120 grit diamond plate. Fast and furious, but the underlying material was better than the NOS old steel on top.

Originally Posted by Sheets

An unfortunate experience, but not unique for "unused" Japanese chisels. The chisels are not going to be crap. Re-sharpen them carefully, and you will probably not have any more trouble (provided the bevel angle is appropriate for the wood and use).

It is a characteristic of hand forged (good quality Japanese tools) tool steel, that the hardness will increase somewhat over time after they have been quenched and tempered by the blacksmith. This effect, called retained Austenite, usually happens after the tool has been sold, so the owner gets to deal with the "chipping". This process is not continuous, so usually, one or two sharpenings has removed the brittle steel and all's ok after that.

I'd try to explain it (retained Austenite), but my memory is likely faulty, so perhaps best to look it up. Its not something that is guaranteed to happen, nor predictable to a specific passage of time, nor to any particular brand/smith, so this makes it relatively rare. It probably happens more often than we hear about, but I suspect many people just resharpen their tools and when things go well from then on, put the experience down to the learning curve/poor technique?

I have a theory about why early imports of Japanese chisels to North America got such a poor reputation (think Iyoroi) - the edges would chip on first use - the tools would be declared junk, and this "myth" of poor quality was spread and perpetuated and probably still persists. People had not been dealing with hand-forged tools for so long, that they had forgotten what was probably common knowledge among their forefathers.

I used to have a set of instructions that came with Fujikawa chisels, that essentially explained that this might occur and why, and what to do about it.

Anyway, I hope this makes you feels somewhat better, so don't throw your chisels (or money) away!

Ps., abusing edges on a grinder won't cause the steel to get brittle, rather the loss of hardness will only make them dull more quickly- which is why one should never use a grinder (unless its slow speed and water cooled - kind of like a water stone).

what Shedie describes is not uncommon.

Only bin the chisels as being no good after trying a steeper bevel angle (up to about 30°) and repeated sharpening has removed the first mm or so of the original edge

I started this reply this morning so others may have better answers already.

I don't know anything about Japanese steel/chisels in particular, but I've managed to put and keep razor sharp edges on the crap Chinese chisels from harbor freight (blacksmithing experiment).

If the chisels are literally breaking, then the temper may be too hard. Not something likely done by the previous owner.

FWIW, I was taught to never sharpen a tempered chisel on a grinder because it will ruin the temper. Now there are grinding wheels that run cooler, but still...lesson learned.

NOTE: don't do this on high-priced blades!

Two things you could try: re-temper and/or change the angle on the blade.

I use a blow torch for this - no forge needed.

First, anneal the tip. Heat it (tip only) red hot and let it air cool. This will soften the steel.

Change the angle on the blade if desired. Grinder ok for this step.

Heat the tip (inch or so) to red hot again for 3-5 minutes. Quench it in vegetable oil (I use olive) to harden it.

I don't usually temper any further, but you may want to. This part isn't very scientific, because I don't watch the colors or time exactly, but I heat in an oil bath at 300-400 degrees (old toaster oven) for a couple hours.

When it's done baking, let cool and clean the cruft off with a wire wheel or sand paper. I buff and polish to a mirror sheen.

The oil bath seems to help with rust prevention too.

After all that, sharpen.

Good luck!

Occasionally I make my own wood cutting tools, but would never attempt to re-heat treat a Japanese blade myself.

On grinding, your slow wet grinder won't de-temper the steel but will take some time to get the job done. IF used cautiously*, a diamond or CBN wheel will get the regrinding done safely, but much quicker. If you have a half speed grinder, that's better. Experiment with some of the chips if they are large enough. Belt sanders are another good option as the surface speed is much slower than a bench grinder.

(* use a very light touch and only grind briefly, allowing to air cool after each grind. The air stream coming off the grinder wheel will do that quickly if held near to it. DON'T water cool)


+1 to Sheets' post.

Neil

Originally Posted by glennaycock

I started this reply this morning so others may have better answers already.

I don't know anything about Japanese steel/chisels in particular, but I've managed to put and keep razor sharp edges on the crap Chinese chisels from harbor freight (blacksmithing experiment).

If the chisels are literally breaking, then the temper may be too hard. Not something likely done by the previous owner.

FWIW, I was taught to never sharpen a tempered chisel on a grinder because it will ruin the temper. Now there are grinding wheels that run cooler, but still...lesson learned.

NOTE: don't do this on high-priced blades!

Two things you could try: re-temper and/or change the angle on the blade.

I use a blow torch for this - no forge needed.

First, anneal the tip. Heat it (tip only) red hot and let it air cool. This will soften the steel.

Change the angle on the blade if desired. Grinder ok for this step.

Heat the tip (inch or so) to red hot again for 3-5 minutes. Quench it in vegetable oil (I use olive) to harden it.

I don't usually temper any further, but you may want to. This part isn't very scientific, because I don't watch the colors or time exactly, but I heat in an oil bath at 300-400 degrees (old toaster oven) for a couple hours.

When it's done baking, let cool and clean the cruft off with a wire wheel or sand paper. I buff and polish to a mirror sheen.

The oil bath seems to help with rust prevention too.

After all that, sharpen.

Good luck!

Warning (apologies in advance for the harsh language and coarse humour)

Why not hit it a few times with a hammer while its hot and get rid of that depression in the back, too?

Hey Mate, are those Japanese chisels? "Well,... they used to be, but now they're laminated screwdrivers"

Seriously:

In this case, even with all the luck available in the entire Universe, you could not make better what was made worse by undoing the hardening/tempering applied by the Japanese blacksmith (expert in these things). You may end up with a tool that functions, but you may as well have started with a hardware store "reform" grade tool, because it is likely to work better.

Honestly, there is so much involved with how Japanese tools are hand forged, that without that knowhow and skill/experience, ruin (or at best, a serious degradation in performance) is the only result from applying heat.

This is my advice anyway. People, of course, are free to do to their own tools as they desire.

How much do you want for those screwdrivers?

To be fair, I did give warning that I don't know anything about Japanese chisels and not to do it on valuable blades. For all he knows, they could be crappy Chinese steel passed off as japanese forged. Apply common sense ;-)