Thread: Japanese Kitchen Knives

I have re-finished the knife block to a satin sheen. I think it looks better. SWMBO said it looks more masculine, but she may have been trying to appeal to my macho side .

I'm hoping it will meet with approval from my sister in law and of course the final recipient.

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Here are some more pictures of the knives themselves as I suspect that is what you really want to see. I have included the block laid alongside the knives to highlight the contrast in finish.

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I have tried to use the new system of posting pix as outlined by Neil rather than "inserting in line." It looks as though one pic in the first four is a duplicate although it has a different designation and one pic is missing. Not sure what happened. it is probably me. I have that effect on computers .

Regards
Paul

There's a cooking show in the US on PBS called "America's Test Kitchen" that I usually watch, very good show. They blew me away last night with a review of vegetable cleavers, which included both usuba and nakiri. The show staff use a nakiri (Mac/Mak brand or something close) because they're lighter and very sharp; but the reviewer said pro chefs prefer usuba because the single bevel helps push away the cut pieces.

Pam

Originally Posted by rsser

White and blue steel are made by Hitachi and named after the colour of the paper they came in.

Blue is harder than white so will hold an edge longer but takes more care in use (as it's more brittle) and more sharpening effort.

That's about it, Ern.

Harder = More abrasive resistant = Slower to lose sharp edge = A bit slower to resharpen

A good bladesmith will optimise this difference.

Originally Posted by rsser

..these fine edges are for slicing only.

This is my advice to new users of J-knives, which I adhere to myself. Unlike western knives, there is no need to push hard down on the knife. The v. sharp edge will slice through food with just the weight of the knife.

Having said that; the Nakiri is used by the Japanese for fine mincing, but with a delicate touch not familiar to westerners. Treat it like a cleaver and the hard/brittle edge steel will chip.

Originally Posted by rsser

Also there's a downside with Damascus figure.... the figure can stain by the slurry on a stone

As well as the acid etch, if a maker has used that, the flux used to 'weld' the laminated layers together seems to be more prone to oxidising. That is why you also get that oxidisation along the lamination line with just a single layer of cladding.

No 'expert' here, perhaps just a few more years playing around with them than some, along with an ongoing interest in any tool that I use.

Neil, I've learned a great deal from you. Thanks for your generous sharing.

Pam, these knife blades are so thin that I'm not sure that a single bevel will make that much difference, at least to this amateur. The Tanaka Nakiri is 0.6mm thick at the end of the bevels. (It didn't come quite like that; that's a product of my sharpening and taking out some of the surface grind marks with a belt sander but the basic point remains.)

That said I'm slowly taking the inside bevel off to see. The triangular X-section handle marks this as a right-hander's tool.

Originally Posted by rsser

Neil, I've learned a great deal from you. Thanks for your generous sharing.

Pam, these knife blades are so thin that I'm not sure that a single bevel will make that much difference, at least to this amateur. The Tanaka Nakiri is 0.6mm thick at the end of the bevels. (It didn't come quite like that; that's a product of my sharpening and taking out some of the surface grind marks with a belt sander but the basic point remains.)

That said I'm slowly taking the inside bevel off to see. The triangular X-section handle marks this as a right-hander's tool.

Neil, me, too.

Ern, very interesting thing to try. Please let us know how this works out. My understanding of how a single bevel may be better at sloughing off the cut pieces is when one is cutting really fast moving down the vegetable with fingers and knife. Anyhow, I was merely passing on what America's Test Kitchen said.

In principle it should work better Pam. The feel in practice is to be seen.

It's certainly odd using a single-bevel knife like a Deba for the first time. For filleting fish you can immediately see the point though as the flat bottom follows the spine and the rather thick bevel lifts the fillet away. You're not battling the tendency to dive that a double-bevel knife has.

Originally Posted by rsser

Neil, I've learned a great deal from you. Thanks for your generous sharing.

Originally Posted by Pam

Neil, me, too.

Maybe someone who knows a lot about these knives will come along and we can all learn from them.

Hopefully we won't have to then unlearn too much of what we thought we knew...

Until then, I'm happy to share what I think I know.

Originally Posted by NeilS

Nice combination, Bushmiller, that Bull Oak (buloke) and blade steel together.

I have bought Japanese knives with western style handles for older people that have used western style knives all of their lives. With a western style handle the knife wasn't too much of a leap from what was familiar to them. For the same reason I went with V10 blades as they had also become used to stainless steels.

But, for myself, I have become quite fond of the traditional Japanese handle. Particularly the way the shape of the handle, which is more pronounced from some makers, fits in the hand.

Your thread reminded me of a project of mine that has sat uncompleted for some time.

Some years ago I bought an very old nakirri with a single bevel, a style not commonly made now, to see if I liked that style of knife. It came with a split in the handle which subsequently broke right open. I set about making a new handle for it but never got around to fitting it.

The old handle had quite a pronounced ridge, which I accentuated in the replacements that I made.

Attachment 287942

I like the way they fitted in my hand.

Here are two of handles that I made for the nakirri.

Three views of same two handles.

Attachment 287943

Attachment 287944

Attachment 287945

One is buloke and a forgotten wood from fruit or nut trees at the 'ferule' end.

The other some sort of purpleheart (oxidises towards brown over time) and another forgotten wood at the 'ferule' end.

I was still deciding which one to use, and that was as far as I got.

No finish on them yet as epoxy will be used to help set the blade in the handle.

Then just an oil, like Kunos Natural Oil Sealer No 244.

I'm not about to go into production myself, too busy woodturning when I do get the time to do that, but I reckon there is a good sideline for someone on this forum making nice handles for good Japanese knives. I know my local gallery that I sell my woodturning through would jump at the chance to have a cabinet of knives with speccy Australian wooden handles on display. Check out Stefan's custom knife handles for the type of handle that is in demand from J-knife enthusiasts.

Apologies for butting into your thread, Bushmiller, but I couldn't resist the opportunity to help you reconnect another J-knife thread (which some of us love) back into the broader interests of the forum.

Neil

Can I hark back to this post and ask how the hole for the flat tang is made? I imagine a series of holes drilled adjacent to each other the same diameter as the tang thickness. The difficulty would then be to clean out the remainder of the waste. Or is there another method? I have a definite reason for asking this question as I have at least two knives on the way which will require a smart JP style handle.

I have definitely been bitten by the bug.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Neil

Can I hark back to this post and ask how the hole for the flat tang is made? I imagine a series of holes drilled adjacent to each other the same diameter as the tang thickness. The difficulty would then be to clean out the remainder of the waste. Or is there another method? I have a definite reason for asking this question as I have at least two knives on the way which will require a smart JP style handle.

I have definitely been bitten by the bug.

Regards
Paul

Depends on the thickness of the tang. They can vary from 3-8mm.

For the thinner tangs you need a long shanked drill bit to go deep enough. As you say, drill centre and either end to begin mortise. Drill additional holes if required. Some tangs taper, in which case, mark on outside of handle to get correct drill angle/s. Drill deeper than the length of the tang to make removing the waste wood at the bottom of the mortise easier.

And, yes, removing the remaining waste wood in such a narrow mortise is a challenge. Japanese mortice nomi do go down to 3mm thickness, but I find my small hand carving tools and customised knives get most use for this.

The fit doesn't have to be tight. Epoxy takes up any gaps.

Neil

Thank you. You have confirmed my worst fears.

I was looking at a very fine mortising chisel a while back on ebay ( less than 3mm) and decided not to pursue it as I was being extravagant!

I might have to make up a specialised morticing tool. Another idea that came to me after I posted was using a multi tool fitted with a 10mm blade after the initial drilling has been done. However the blades are not long and it would also be dependent on the tang thickness and width as they cut wider than 10mm with their oscillation. It might assist to remove the bulk of the material before final finishing by hand. having dais all that the use of a machine flies in the face of such a crafted handle, but I suppose you could argue the same of using an electric drill.

Regards
Paul

At the business end of a 2-3mm chisel, there's not that much difference between a mortiser and a bench edge, most of the difference is between the shanks. Also, it's difficult to get the size precisely as stated, so you can plan on possibly having to grind a touch on each side. If you have a very narrow chisel you don't use, I'd give grinding a try. Just be careful of any steel that wraps around the sides, would hate to lose a lot of that.

Pam

Originally Posted by Pam

At the business end of a 2-3mm chisel, there's not that much difference between a mortiser and a bench edge, most of the difference is between the shanks. Also, it's difficult to get the size precisely as stated, so you can plan on possibly having to grind a touch on each side. If you have a very narrow chisel you don't use, I'd give grinding a try. Just be careful of any steel that wraps around the sides, would hate to lose a lot of that.

Pam

Good idea Pam. I have a chisel I could "modify."

Regards
Paul

Congratulations, good work.

This Japanese style knife I made ​​last year for use in meetings with friends.




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Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Good idea Pam. I have a cisel I could "modify." l

Cool. I forgot to mention that it might help in this difficult situation to add a little trapezoidal shape to your mods, very slight.

Pam