Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 67
  1. #31
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    93

    Default

    I mainly use Jnats for my kitchen knives, and what I found is that, compare to shapton GS ceramics stones, the Jnats give a much better sharpening feel and feedback, and yields much better result (for kitchen knives, bring out the contrast of soft and hard iron).
    Also I found the shapton is a bit too aggressive.

    When using Jnats with tools, I found the shapton is easier to use on HSS steel, and Jnats are good for carbon tools like japanese chisels.

  2. # ADS
    Google Adsense Advertisement
    Join Date
    Always
    Location
    Advertising world
    Posts
    Many





     
  3. #32
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Adelaide Hills, South Australia
    Posts
    4,311

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pkjames View Post
    I mainly use Jnats for my kitchen knives, and what I found is that, compare to shapton GS ceramics stones, the Jnats give a much better sharpening feel and feedback, and yields much better result (for kitchen knives, bring out the contrast of soft and hard iron).

    Also I found the shapton is a bit too aggressive.

    When using Jnats with tools, I found the shapton is easier to use on HSS steel, and Jnats are good for carbon tools like japanese chisels.
    Interesting observations, PK.

    There is an aesthetic factor with the finish off the Jnats, which I for one like, but I'm not sure that I could justify the cost for that alone. When you say, 'yields much better result', does that include a better cutting performance, as well as appearance?

    Must admit that I have never attempted to sharpen HSS on the Jnats. Other than PKJ, has anyone else?

  4. #33
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    93

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by NeilS View Post
    Interesting observations, PK.

    There is an aesthetic factor with the finish off the Jnats, which I for one like, but I'm not sure that I could justify the cost for that alone. When you say, 'yields much better result', does that include a better cutting performance, as well as appearance?

    Must admit that I have never attempted to sharpen HSS on the Jnats. Other than PKJ, has anyone else?
    Both. Aside form the finish appearance (Jnats blow the synthetics away), I read that since Jnats are less uniform, they actually create certain teeth at the blade to some degree, which makes the sharpness last a bit longer because the blade wears out less uniformly; and the teeth actually makes the cutting feels better because of the bite. In contrast, synthetic stones are more uniform, so the blade could go sharper but wears out faster (the feeling is like you cut everything like butter at the beginning, and quickly everything turns into rock). I found this is in fact the case for my carbon kitchen knives. So as soon as I got myself a coupe of Jnats in the kitchen, I stopped using the shaptons.

    Of course, this may not apply to woodworking tools, because kitchen knives have different sharpness requirement compare to woodworking tools. That said, I don't have many handtools that are HSS. Chisels and plane blades are all carbon; for the HSS turning tools, I use tormek. I have a chefs knife made of HSS, and sharpening that on a Jnat was daunting.

  5. #34
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Melbourne, Aus.
    Age
    71
    Posts
    12,746

    Default

    Thanks for the posts folks: intriguing, informed, modest. Zen qualities?
    Cheers, Ern

  6. #35
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    145

    Default

    Gadge and others,
    Sorry I have found this thread so late. I can testify to the quality of the stones that Garry has sourced from Australia. This is a stone that he sent my way some time ago and I use it extensively:

    https://www.woodworkforums.com/member...nishing-stone/

    I sharpen pretty much every thing with this stone and get good general results. I don't have the resources to take high rez images of sharpenned bevels or anything like that, all I can offer is that it gives a material improvement over my sigma 8000 synthetic stone. It gives that gorgeous hazy finish on sharpened surfaces and, on Japanese laminated blades, it gives a big contrast between the Hagane and Jigane. Unlike synthetic stones which result in a uniformly bright and shiny surface on both steel layers. For my money it is well worth incorporating this stone in my sharpenning sequence.

    It doesn't show well on the photo but the stone is not uniform in composition. One end has a khaki green tinge to it and the other end is a clay red colour. The green end seems to do the abrasion and is quite aggressive on carbon steels.

    Bang for buck, this stone has to be the best thing going.

    Regards

    Derek

  7. #36
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    93

    Default

    Instead of creating a new thread, I thought I would ask here about the techniques people are using to sharpen on their natural stones.

    I have been sharpening on synthetics and there is a fair amount I can find online about using synthetics but not much about naturals. I was given a natural finisher recently but am interested in how people use theirs in terms of raising slurry, soaking and time spent on each stone.

    Thanks

  8. #37
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Lawrencetown, NS, Canada
    Posts
    587

    Default

    Hi fields,

    For me, I don't soak my natural stones (any grit), finding that they don't really absorb water like synthetics can. I just add water according to my preference depending on the stone. Rough grits tend to need a fair amount, while finer grits benefit from less water in my experience. Some stones create enough slurry just from sharpening (usually a softer stone), some require (or benefit) from using a nagura (some people use a diamond plate) to create a slurry, but you have to be sure the nagura, if used, is not of a coarser grit than the stone. Also, stones that tend to make their own slurry sometimes need to be flushed off to get a more rapid cut, but benefit from using the slurry before moving on to a finer grit or for the last stage of sharpening.

    So in a nutshell, don't soak (I think most people would advise against it - some stones can deteriorate when left soaking), adjust the water/slurry to suit your preference as you gain experience.

    As for time spent, that will depend on the grit, the amount of metal you need to get your edge and how much "bite" your particular stone has (same really as for synthetics). And to further complicate things, it will depend on the type of steel you have in your tools. As a general guideline, hard steels go well with soft stones and vice versa. But use what you have and see how things go. Hope that's helpful - I'm sure others will chime in (hopefully) and help too.

    Do you know anything about the stone you were given?

    Steve

  9. #38
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    93

    Default

    Thanks for that, I guess its all a bit of experimentation to see what works best for the stone.

    I was trying to use it on some Japanese chisels that I had bought from pkjames that I had previously sharpened to my last stone (an arashiyama 6000 synthetic) which had removed most of the differentiation between the laminations.

    The stone was given to me by an acquaintance who had bought it with a whole lot of other things he needed and had never got around to using. He was sure it was in his words "nakyorma suiter" which I am taking to be a Nakayama Suita... from the colouring it looks like a maruka from what I can see online.

    It was very flat, I splashed it and then tried to sharpen as it appeared flat. The water on top changed colour but I did not see a noticable difference on the chisel and no slurry appeared, so have been looking for ideas about the best way to use it. I'm thinking I need a diamond plate to release slurry but mine is course and I'm afraid of ruining the stone and have no idea how much water I need. My other stones all are water hungry sigma 120 i use under running water, bester 1200 gets soaked and water constantly dripped when using it - arashiyama I soak briefly then splash water on the surface when it starts to get dry, each you can see the results of the steel being abraded as you use them, not so-much on the stone I was attempting to use.

  10. #39
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Adelaide Hills, South Australia
    Posts
    4,311

    Default

    +1, to all that Sheets has said.

    My preference is to use a diamond plate; it both keeps the stone flat and raises a slurry, if needed.

    Don't worry at this stage about the coarseness of your diamond plate, just use it sparingly to get you going. What grit is it? The main issue with diamond plates is their flatness; some aren't.

    Depending on its grit range (naturals work within a range) you may have too large a jump between your #6000 synthetic and your natural. A very fine and not very aggressive natural towards the #20K range may struggle to rework a #6K grind, but a more aggressive #12-15k nat should do a good job after the $6k.

    One thing to keep in mind is that the #6K synthetic will leave a deep V abrasion pattern, while the naturals will create a shallower more rounded abrasion. It takes a little extra time with the natural that is used after the synthetic to get down deep enough to remove the bottoms of the Vs. Not an issue if you are just maintaining the edge with the natural and don't have to go back to the #6k for more substantial maintenance.

  11. #40
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    93

    Default

    Thanks for the feedback,

    I have a DMT Course plate and used it last night briefly to raise a slurry and sharpen a japanese knife (since the stone was already in the kitchen) , there were no deep looking scratches on the stone and the slurry made a noticable difference, looks like water management is important, i had difficulties in keeping it in a state where it had not dried out but not washing the slurry away when wetting it; will try more on the weekend.

  12. #41
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    93

    Default

    it also depends on stone type. I use a 6K synthetic from JapaneseNaturalStones, which is designed as a finisher for japanese kitchen knives. it leaves a very nice haze finish with good hard/soft iron contrast. I use it as a pre-finisher for my carbon tools, which performs better than other "fast ceramic" stones like shapton GS 6k on traditional japanese laminated tools.

    i also found that, usually soft natural stones used for kitchen knives are very good pre-finisher for tools / razors. They are more like 6k to 12k range.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeilS View Post
    +1, to all that Sheets has said.

    My preference is to use a diamond plate; it both keeps the stone flat and raises a slurry, if needed.

    Don't worry at this stage about the coarseness of your diamond plate, just use it sparingly to get you going. What grit is it? The main issue with diamond plates is their flatness; some aren't.

    Depending on its grit range (naturals work within a range) you may have too large a jump between your #6000 synthetic and your natural. A very fine and not very aggressive natural towards the #20K range may struggle to rework a #6K grind, but a more aggressive #12-15k nat should do a good job after the $6k.

    One thing to keep in mind is that the #6K synthetic will leave a deep V abrasion pattern, while the naturals will create a shallower more rounded abrasion. It takes a little extra time with the natural that is used after the synthetic to get down deep enough to remove the bottoms of the Vs. Not an issue if you are just maintaining the edge with the natural and don't have to go back to the #6k for more substantial maintenance.

  13. #42
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    93

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fields View Post
    The stone was given to me by an acquaintance who had bought it with a whole lot of other things he needed and had never got around to using. He was sure it was in his words "nakyorma suiter" which I am taking to be a Nakayama Suita... from the colouring it looks like a maruka from what I can see online.
    nakayama suita tends to be on the harder side, and you do need to rise the mud/slurry a bit before you can use it, which comes to the term of "nagura", basically a slurry rising stone. With mud, I would say you will see a big improvement in the stone's performance. A good clean, reasonable sized nakayama suita (esp. genuine maruka branded) could sell for more than $1K nowadays, as they are the best quality stones.

    I never use diamond plate to rise mud but only to flatten natural stones, for the reason that explained here.
    Diamond Plates VS Naguras

    btw, how do you find the chisels?

  14. #43
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    93

    Default

    I practiced on the weekend, the overall finish and feel appeared more refined but there was the occasional "crunchy" feeling on the stone and some larger scratches so not sure if there is a problem with my technique or if I need to get a nagura.

    Overall I find the chisels OK. They are much sharper than I could ever get a western chisel, if I pare only they last for a long time and cut very well. When I start using a mallet, even with the mortise chisel, I get micro chipping along the blade which requires a resharpen before I can use them for anything but rough work. I sharpened to the original angle they came with but am wondering if I need to go a bit steeper. I was also a little frustrated with the approx 12mm chisel that there were some angular what looks like surface grinder marks on the back that interfered with the bevel, the only option I had on it was to flatten the back, moving the ura a fair way back, but they are an enjoyable learning experience all the same.

  15. #44
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Adelaide Hills, South Australia
    Posts
    4,311

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fields View Post
    I practiced on the weekend, the overall finish and feel appeared more refined but there was the occasional "crunchy" feeling on the stone and some larger scratches so not sure if there is a problem with my technique or if I need to get a nagura.
    Feilds - a 'cruchy' sound is not what you want to hear on a finishing stone. The fact that it is occasional and causing only some large scratches may be a clue as to what is happening. If you were getting widespread scratches then larger particle swarf raised by the coarse diamond plate might be the cause. The fact that you are only getting occasional deeper scratches may be pointing to renegade larger particles escaping out of pockets (the 'su', which is why the stone is called suita) or fault lines in your stone, so-called 'toxic' areas. Without seeing or using the stone it is hard to know.

    As a next step, if you could borrow a finer diamond plate from a mate you could try that to see if that eliminates the problem.

    I do not have enough experience with nagura to comment with any confidence on whether you need it or not for your Nakayama stone. I was using nagura on mine and the advice I received from So Yamashita (Japan Tool) was it was detrimental for use on my particular stone, so I changed to using diamond plates. His general advice on that here. I understand that one of the challenges with nagura is getting some that is fine enough for your stone, but, as I say, I don't have much experience with it.


    pkjames - Thanks for providing that link to the JNS website. It is always good to get such input.

    On reading that article and looking over that site, it seems to me anyone with a $1K stone would want to preserve every nanometre of it. I can see the argument for using nagura with those valuable stones. But, from what I can gather, most natural stone users on this forum are like me and have made frugal acquisitions, buying stones that are relatively cheap because they have flaws or not highly desirable for one reason or another. For example, my Nakayama cost me just over $100 back about eight years ago. It was cheaper because it has flaws, but if I avoid those flaws it performs very well. According to So, without the flaws that stone would have been worth over $500, which I would not have been prepared to pay. However, I'm relaxed about the rate at which I'm wearing down my $100 Nakayama with the diamond plate, which seems imperceptible to me just keeping a dozen kitchen knives sharp + the occasional chisel and plane blade. But, if I was a razor or knife maker sharpening many blades every day on very valuable stones I would no doubt be using nagura for slurry raising.

  16. #45
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Adelaide Hills, South Australia
    Posts
    4,311

    Default Nagura

    Warning: long and obscure post, but if you are reading posts about J-nats it may be of some interest!

    P
    kjames' post on using nagura had me thinking more about it and sent me off to find some references that I had floating around in the back of my mind, which I have now dredged up.

    One point that pkjames was making in his post by providing the link to the Diamond Plates VS Naguras reference on JNS, was that the use of a diamond plate as a way of raising a slurry (as distinct from when used to flatten a stone) is too severe and will unnecessarily wear away expensive natural stones. As mentioned previously, I have not seen any significant loss of stone after using a diamond plate on my Nakayama over a number of years, at least at the rate at which I use it. I have now found the reference I was looking for. The relevant comment on the use of Atoma diamond plates on naturals is at about 5mins 45secs into Alx's YouTube video Nagura what is it, how to use it and which one to use. And, if you are interested, Alx also has lots more information about j-nats at his TheJapanBlade website and blog, including a page on Nagura Stone and Its Use. Just avoid looking at the prices in his Stone Shop...

    I received similar advice from So Yamashita (of Japan Tool) on my suita stone; the nagura was being trapped in the su pockets and these renegade particles were escaping back into the fine slurry formed late in the honing process to cause larger scratches in the otherwise very fine abrasion pattern.

    The above comments are particularly relevant if you have a suita stone. The advantages of a nagura slurry on other stones, particularly hard straight razor stones, are outlined by Alx.

    On the other point about using diamond plates that Maksim has made on JNS is as follows:
    By far, the most problematic - you remove big chunks of your stone every time you make slurry

    This can cause an uneven texture in the slurry mix if you are not careful (NOT GOOD)
    In the best case, this makes your natural stone act like a synthetic, because the particles you remove from the stones surface will be in chunks rather than plates.

    This then leads you to only be able to extract one result from your J-nat, so it’s very limiting.


    In short, Your stone will not give you 100 % performance.


    I'm not fully convinced about his argument on this point. One of the main features of a J-nat stone is that their freshly released abrasive particles break down into finer particles as they are worked in the slurry to give a progressively finer abrasive pattern. How starting with bigger chunks would stop this process and result in only being able to 'extract one result from your J-nat' is not clear. It may take a little longer to break down the larger particles into their finest fraction, but it will happen because that is what waterstones do. It needs to be kept in mind that what is holding the abrasive particles together in the stone (a clay like substance) is the softest component of the stone and will breakdown well before any of the abrasive particles start to do so. That is the way waterstones work and why we use water.

    If concerned, use a finer and/or old diamond plate, which will be less aggressive on the stone.

    That's enough on diamond plating, but what, if anything, does nagura add to the appearance of a blade?

    One of the most insightful comments on this comes from Tokifusa Iisuka the Shigefusa knife smith.
    Hide asked Iizuka-san if he uses nagura and the answer was he does not need to use nagura because his knives are clad with jigane. Reference here.

    That's a cryptic comment, as almost all quality J-blades have a jigane (soft metal) cladding. It is probably his polite way of saying he doesn't need to use nagura to achieve the level of polish on his knives for which he is renowned.

    If you are not familiar with Shigefusa, here is what So Yamashita wrote of him:
    He is one of the most famous houchou (Japanese style chef's knife) blacksmith in Japan. Shigefusa trained under the famous tamahagane razor maker Iwasaki Shigeyoshi for 10 years, and before he became independent he received several months of training by another very famous swordsmith Nagashima Munenori by the recommendation of Iwasaki-san.
    By the age of 38 he had already been celebrated as the best houchou maker in Japan. The beautiful polished look of Shigefusa knives are achieved by applying the special Japanese sword poishing technique creating the hazy polished look. Shigefusa has achieved an unrivalled status as a houchou maker.


    I'd be very satisfied with myself if I could get anywhere near his finish, but it looks like I won't be needing nagura in my futile attempts to do so.

    Also of interesting on the above link to the Hide page are the comments about Iisuka-san's most used natural stone. The take-home message for me there is, if Iisuka is prepared to dig out toxic lines to be able to use an otherwise very good stone then that's something lots of us could adopt and in doing so not have to pay the prices demanded for unblemished stones.

    In summary, if you have a hard non-suita stone and you are concerned about loss of stone from the use of a diamond plate to raise a slurry, you might like to try using nagura to get the formation of slurry under way. But, there doesn't appear to be any benefit in the resultant appearance of the blade.

    Stay sharp!

    Neil

Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Japanese Waterstones
    By groeneaj in forum SHARPENING
    Replies: 39
    Last Post: 2nd November 2010, 07:45 PM
  2. Shaptons v natural waterstones at 15,000 grit?
    By rsser in forum SHARPENING
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 19th May 2010, 09:18 PM
  3. Natural Japanese waterstones
    By wilburpan in forum JAPANESE HAND TOOLS
    Replies: 69
    Last Post: 27th March 2010, 12:42 PM
  4. Anyone using Japanese natural waterstones?
    By NeilS in forum JAPANESE HAND TOOLS
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 20th September 2008, 01:15 PM
  5. Japanese waterstones
    By Driver in forum JAPANESE HAND TOOLS
    Replies: 65
    Last Post: 12th March 2005, 08:35 PM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •