Thread: Natural Japanese waterstones update

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Neil

My mind is boggling at the level of information, the complexity of application and the sheer science behind the techniques. Clearly there is misinformation as well as difference of opinion too. I guess that is just science applied to the not so humble sharpening stone.

I may never own a Jnat, but I surely appreciate all the information posted.

Regards
Paul

Paul,

In regard to the bold, more than you would ever believe possible.

The underlined, not so much.


That said, I urge you to try a nice natural stone. No need to buy into it, but if given the chance, by all means give them a try. Very nice.

Stu.

(Seems quotes are all italics, which was confusing...)

Lots of interesting input, thanks I'll see if I can take some of it on board, like all these things proper process is difficult to put into words once you have it i'm sure its obvious.

Yeah, there was very little science around when they first started using those stones, or technology for that matter. Their use developed as a craft and the mystique around them is as much to do with tradition and aesthetics as performance, although most agree they do produce a longer lasting edge.

Any technical talk is just an attempt to understand what was understood intuitively by those early craftsmen.

As for the argy-bagy around them, it's just the typical jostling that goes on between fiefdoms and reputations.

As Stu has said, if you get a chance to try a J or A-nat, have a go. It's the only way you will know if the aesthetics or performance is worth the loot to you.

Even if we don't get to use any of the naturals, we all owe a lot to them. Without them we wouldn't have their descendants, the modern high tech man-made waterstone, on which most of us depend.

Originally Posted by Schtoo

Paul,

In regard to the bold, more than you would ever believe possible.

The underlined, not so much.


That said, I urge you to try a nice natural stone. No need to buy into it, but if given the chance, by all means give them a try. Very nice.

Stu.

(Seems quotes are all italics, which was confusing...)

Stu

I know what you meant.

Sharpening for me has been a long road and much of the journey spent without success, which was of course a consequence of not understanding what was going on. It started with oil stones with which I persevered for many years. Recently I progressed to waterstones and this was what led me to believe there were much better options available.

I then bought a ceramic stone, which I never used as I took the plunge and more recently bought three Sigma Power stones for myself and two for my son ( as his Chrissy present), but I am shy of disclosing all this as they came from Tools from Japan. I would hate anybody to think that this was a set up, but in my defence Stu came into this debate latterly.

I should state that I am very pleased with the results of these stones. My interest has come after "discovering" Japanese kitchen knives. I was therefore very interested to see Stu's coment that I should try Jnats. I would be most interested in trying them, but not too many around these parts are likely to have them. I live in conservative, country Queensland. They have not long acknowledged the existence of NSW let alone a country from overseas!

Perhaps we should organise a sharpening session at a get together one day. I will look forward to that time. In the meantime thank you for all the information. It's fascinating.

Regards
Paul

Well, Paul, I had to google Millerran and it was nowhere near to where I was thinking....

I've been using a Jnat I picked up from a market in Kyoto a few years ago. The bloke asked me what I was going to use it for - knives - and he picked one out for me. It's sharpened the knives pretty well for me so far (sharp enough for my wife and I anyway) and they keep their edge for a while. I can only compare it to a set of kings that I have for chisels. I would venture that the jnat is on the soft side, but harder than the kings.

It's dark grey, if that adds anything.

Originally Posted by desert oak

I've been using a Jnat I picked up from a market in Kyoto a few years ago. The bloke asked me what I was going to use it for - knives - and he picked one out for me. It's sharpened the knives pretty well for me so far (sharp enough for my wife and I anyway) and they keep their edge for a while.

Desert Oak - if I remember correctly you also purchased some Shigeharu knives while you were in Japan. Knives of that pedigree deserve to be teamed up with a J-nat. The best stones come from the Kyoto area (Mt Atago) and those Shigeharu knives have been made in Kyoto for many centuries. So, a fitting combination. I imagine a nice experience in every way.

Neil

Originally Posted by desert oak

Well, Paul, I had to google Millerran and it was nowhere near to where I was thinking....

desert oak

I'm not sure that much thinking went into the positioning of Millmerran. Having said that, I'm comfortable here.

Good to hear that there are people out there having experience of the Jnats. I also note from Neil's later post that you have a coveted chef's knife. Sounds intriguing; Perhaps you could post a pic.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Gadge

This is a very interesting subject and deserves more attention so I've decided to throw in my contribution.

I have attached a powerpoint presentation of a couple of stones which I quarried in NSW. We don't have to buy expensive Japanese stones when we can pick them up locally. Since making this powerpoint (2012) I have found a source of better stones which are not a long way short of my Japanese suita. I use the suita as a comparison (reality check) when I think I've found a really good stone. If every I find stone as good as the suita in Australia I'll start production.

I actually made this presentation for So San but he did not bother to reply so you may as well benefit.

Regards,
Gadge

Gadge
Great post and photos, although this is a few months after you post, I hope you are still following your personal seach of the native stone leads. The Kyoto awasedo are rich in Radiolarians, I think you have deposits in New South Wales of sedimentary stones that have radiolarians as part of their mix. This is a form of chert that made up of microscopic individual grains unlike the chert we see as stone and used for arrowheads. I suggest that you follow the paper trail of radiolarians with your local university in regards to the outcropping of stone bearing them, it will be a geological survey of your area. Same with you Steve in Nova Scotia. The mud binder component is really important but your stones Gadge look so similar to the Kyoto stones to be spooky.

About the use of diamond plates. It was So-san from whom I first heard the suggestion of using them on ultra hard stone, and Peter Cowick from whom I first heard the term "Diamond Naguar" or "DN". The DN is an expanding idea and I am sure that if the honemeisters needed to lap or raise a slurry on the ultra hard stones back then (1380-1955) they would have tried them out. The elder Iwasaki-san of Sanjo did not have access to diamond plates in the 1950s when he designed a program to use Aichi Mikawa nagura to aid barbers in consistant honing or razors using ultra hard stones, but also back then the source of Mikawa nagura was flush. Now with the mines closed and depleted the price of this white nagura can only go but up.

Raising a slurry on an ultra hard stone is a chore as I can attest after lapping flat hundreds of awasedo stones. Lapping a similar stone, a hard translucent Arkansas stone usually takes much effort, so much so that I question my sanity in undertaking it. The same with ultra hard level 5+++ awasedo, the amount of effort to remove even just one millimeter is very time consuming. Lapping one of these level 5+++ stones to raise a microns thin slurry will hardly dent the stones longivity and in only the most extreme cases like a knife maker in a busy show shop, slurry building will not shorten the life of the stone as it relates to let's say the occasional use by a 50 year old guy honing a kanna blade once or even twice a week. These super hard stones are always a multi-generational unit that will never wear out in one or even two lifetimes under casual use.

hope this is of interest, Alex Gilmore

Hi Neil,

It is a nice experience. I've just had my parents visiting and needed a little therapy after a week negotiating between them and my wife so, seeing that the knives needed a little sharpening, out came the stone. Very therapeutic. Freudian...?

Paul,

I'm more familiar with the route westwards from Toowoomba through Dalby as opposed to the southwest route through Millmerran...

As for pics of my knives you can check out the thread started by rsser here:

https://www.woodworkforums.com/f111/m...68/index3.html

I would post another pic but I'm doing this from an iPad and that's been difficult enough........

I do admit to constantly fighting the urge to purchase another J-nat. It would be an indulgence.

DO

Originally Posted by alx

....hope this is of interest, Alex Gilmore

Very helpful, thanks Alx.

We are not going to get any better advice on DN use.

And, it would be an excellent development if we could find a good source of A-Nats.

Go for it Gadge!

And, in case anyone hasn't joined up the dots, Alex (aka Alx) is the same Alx at TheJapanBlade that I referenced in my post #45 above.

Originally Posted by desert oak

As for pics of my knives you can check out the thread started by rsser...

Desert Oak - here is a more direct link to the photo of your Shigeharu knives on rsser's (Ern's) thread and here is the associated text.

And, yes, sharpening can be very therapeutic, but I do have to hide my good knives away when certain relatives come to stay, not because of what they might do with the knives but what they are likely to do to my knives ...


Neil

Hi Alex,

Thanks for the advice. I'll look into radiolarian chert. The deposits I've taken the stone from change as you go deeper. Towards the surface is soft mudstone and lower down you can see the stone changing to chert. I've found the best stones are in this areas where chert is starting to form. I have a very detailed geological map and will try to find if any of the stone types listed contain radiolarian chert.

Thanks again,
Gadge

I'm up to trial any A-Nats or for a Brisbane Sharpening Meet-up if they are on the cards,

Great advice from everyone involved... thanks

I hope nobody minds if I append a best wishes for the season and good health in the New Year to everyone. Hopefully, somebody might collect a Jnat as a gift and we can get back to the discussion (or anything else Japanese tool related). Look forward to questions and comments in the future.

All the best,
Steve

Thanks Steve, and....

Season Greetings to you and all Fellow Forumites!





Sent with solar power

and very best wishes for a J-tool enriched 2014

Neil