Thread: Pull Saws - Genetic differences

What sort of wood are you cutting Clinton?

I snapped my first japanese saw cutting Jarrah. Spoke to a knowledgable chap (in Seattle of all places) who put me right -- you need to match the blade to the wood.
Softwood and hardwoods need different tooth shapes

Ian,

I reckon it doesn't matter what timber... its my heavy hands.

I was cutting pine yesterday (framing stuff from Bunnings - hoop?) went a bit too hard and 'snap', the blade it broken through. 3rd time I've broken a japanese saw. Not the teeth, the blade.
These ones were bought in Japan, only used a few times. No idea of the brand (can't read Japanese) but they were made in Japan and mid-price range.

I've never broken a tooth, and I do use them on any timber... I politely ignore the wisdom of not using them on our cranky grain stuff as I think that the right amounts of pressure and rhythm should see it right... but I stuff it up every now and again. The consequence's of stuffing it is is severe, e.g. broken tool.

As for your "tooth differences for soft and hard wood" - would you do me a favour and share the knowledge, please?

I do think it is a body dimension and work practice issue though.
Japanese chisel handles and Japanese plane bodies versus my hand size is another example. I want them "Supersized".

Here is a question:
Is there a Japanese Saw Doctor I can send an old Spear and Jackson to for tooth cutting?

I bought a beefier Japanese saw in Miyoshi, at the Japanese equivalent of the big B., so they exist, (and they're a lot cheaper than the fine ones) but I don't know where you'd get one in Oz. It's a Tajima Dote-9S, sorry I can't read any of the noodle-words, but google may be your friend.

Thanks Alex.

Ian,
Actually, I reserve my right to be proved completely ignorant... I know it is my work practice...

Originally Posted by Clinton1

Here is a question:
Is there a Japanese Saw Doctor I can send an old Spear and Jackson to for tooth cutting?

There is no one that I know of outside of Japan, other than Mark Grable in the US.

Here are his contact details and some info on his sharpening service. BTW those prices are for lightly resharpening a Japanese saw. Don't know if it can be done or image what the cost would be of converting a saw from west to east.

.....

Ok, I'm kinda skirting on the edge of racism here... don't turn off, this is serious... not politically correct... but correct.

You are doing nothing of the sort......you are asking a comparative technical question about non-indigenous adaptation of tools within an anthropological development concept.
And don't let anybody tell you any different.


I have broken a pull saw blade too. Mine is a G-saw and is a very versatile tool for carpentry and gardening. I have learned to use it with just one hand, if I use two hands, I'm moments away from snapping the blade.

I've also noticed that the pull saw cuts best when it cuts at the same rate as a Western saw....it will cut faster but seems to be more accurate at a slower speed. Also the pull saw sems to like a shallower cutting angle.....flatter as it is pulled towards you.

And on a slightly related note.......I've seen photos of Japanese carpenters workshops (a bench building book?) and thought "What a brilliant system, if only I'd seen that 25 years ago".....they love working on the floor, don't they?

Originally Posted by seanz

You are doing nothing of the sort......you are asking a comparative technical question about non-indigenous adaptation of tools within an anthropological development concept.
And don't let anybody tell you any different.

I love it.
And on a slightly related note.......I've seen photos of Japanese carpenters workshops (a bench building book?) and thought "What a brilliant system, if only I'd seen that 25 years ago".....they love working on the floor, don't they?

I love japanese saws too. My first one was a Bunnings cheapy. Only about $20. Plastic handle and that. Not a dovetail saw. Just a cross cut. But a bit beefier than the dovetail saw I subsuquently bought from Carbatech. Maybe you could put a back on the blade to stiffen it for dovetails?

I don't understand how you would break it. Is it when you "shove" it back in to then pull the next cut? Or when you are pulling? Dare I say it. but maybe you just need to do it more gently? It doesn't need as much muscle as western saws. Get a bit lazy with it. Pretend you are playing pool and you are on the black but if you hit it too hard you will follow it in and loose the 50 bucks you have riding on it. Pretend you are cutting a plaster cast off a........ never mind.

I don't understand how you broke it, either, unless it buckles on the return stroke. To prevent that, try pulling it free of the work, and re-start with a new pull stroke, thus avoiding the opportunity to buckle, which BTW is the better way to use a hacksaw on steel. Also, try to use a rocking motion instead of a straight pull, so there's less binding in the kerf - same as a rocking cut with a Western saw. If that's awkward, make successive straight cuts at different angles of attack; new cuts will thus start on thinner stock, which becomes thicker as the cut proceeds.

I love Japanese saws, too, and I'm amazed they're not used as much as they should be. My pull saw has most of the markings obliterated, but it seems to be branded "Shark Saw," otherwise marked "??kagi tools inc." It has somewhat deep teeth, 14tpi, and only a few degrees off perpendicular. If objectives are well explained, a saw doctor might be able to convert a Western saw to a pull saw (I think), even though the handle wouldn't be exactly in the right place.

Thanks to Google, this ( SHARK CORPORATION;High Quality Hand Tools ) just enlightened me that the red button is for replacing blades.

Good analogy to billiards. Gentle works better there, too, in contrast to a death grip.

Cheers,
Joe

Clinton said:

"I just can't cut 'soft' enough without breaking them."

Speaks volumes. You have identified the cause and solution of your "problem" right there.

If you attempt to force the saw, you are applying stress to parts and in directions for which it is not optimized. Always pull parallel to the axis of the blade and never "push" down. The return stroke is an exact opposite of the pull (don't press the teeth this way either).

A dull blade will only frustrate even if your technique is proper. Using too small a saw for heavy work will also frustrate.

You can do it .

Steve

p.s.

"Shark" brand is made by Takagi Tools Inc. in Japan.

Originally Posted by Clinton1

Ian,

I reckon it doesn't matter what timber... its my heavy hands.

I was cutting pine yesterday (framing stuff from Bunnings - hoop?) went a bit too hard and 'snap', the blade it broken through. 3rd time I've broken a japanese saw. Not the teeth, the blade.
These ones were bought in Japan, only used a few times. No idea of the brand (can't read Japanese) but they were made in Japan and mid-price range.

I've never broken a tooth, and I do use them on any timber... I politely ignore the wisdom of not using them on our cranky grain stuff as I think that the right amounts of pressure and rhythm should see it right... but I stuff it up every now and again. The consequence's of stuffing it is is severe, e.g. broken tool.

As for your "tooth differences for soft and hard wood" - would you do me a favour and share the knowledge, please?

I do think it is a body dimension and work practice issue though.

my scanner is currently covered in "important" stuff, so I can't scan the artical on Japanese saws in the May 2010 Furniture & cabinetmaking (and I can't spell either!) -- I'll scan and post part of the article in a day or so

briefly, rip and cross cut teeth are different -- same as for a western saw
softwood rip teeth lean forward somewhat and have a 35° gullet
hardwood rip teeth are more upright and have a 45° gullet

cross cut teeth are filed to a steeper angle than are hardwood teeth -- the tooth count may also vary.

the rest of what I know comes mainly from Japan Woodworker and similar sites which sell "softwood" and "hardwood" blades
and the range of different blades (length and tooth pitch) available in Japan for what is ostensibly the same task

Even without seeing you work, I'd put my money on your technique
I've found Japanese saws respond best to a lighter touch with a more extended arm than I use with a western saw.

If your wallet is up to it, you could see how long it takes you to bend one of the new Lie Neilsen thin plate dovetail saws compared to the Veritas pull DT saw you can get from Carbatech

Alternatively, contact Stu Tierney at Tools from Japan who is on the ground in Japan and can supply lots of good stuff and discuss the issue with him. If anyone can find you a suitable and good value saw, it's Stu.

Hi Clinton,
I can't help you much but agree with previous posts that it's probably a combination of heavy handed technique and wrong tooth pattern for the job! I do have one admittedly cheap pull saw and quite enjoy it, mainly for the thin kerf. I'd like to buy a better one, for dovetails.

Originally Posted by seanz

And on a slightly related note.......I've seen photos of Japanese carpenters workshops (a bench building book?) and thought "What a brilliant system, if only I'd seen that 25 years ago".....they love working on the floor, don't they?

The whole work style of our Asian neighbours interests me. Using the body weight more efficiently or something, maybe more like a martial art!
I do a lot of my work on the floor, for several reasons. Often its the only flat uncuttered area I have, and I like the fact that things don't get knocked off the work surface when moving other stuff around! But I do squat (or kneel) as a matter of normal practice, like in front of the fire, or sitting around with mates. So basically I'm comfortable on the floor, and while I've had a knee reconstruction 20yrs ago and my body is showing signs of aging, I like to think getting up and down like this keeps me mobile.
Here's a link, selected from one of many such hits I got when I looked up "Asian squat" (a.k.a Third World squat). Most of the sites go on to detail the advantages of the squat toilet position, which isn't where I was heading! I was more interested in the connection to mobility.

Anyway, that's enough of a hijack, sorry Clinton!!

Clinton, are your saws backed or unbacked?

I'm not as tall but the same weight and probably just as hamfisted (more chainsaw, less feather touch) so I approached the pull saw with the same trepidation, but I still love em and often reach for one for small and medium jobs.

I've used a bought japanese saw a number times and the first thing that struck me was they are so light I don't even realize I have a tool in my hand. The next thing was that some were very flexible because it had little or no back.

When I made my own handles, I didn't think too hard about it but I also did not look at a Japanese during the process. My design approach is highly technical and involves substantial periods of feeling the tool with my hands, and closed eyes.

Here's what I made


And for comparison here are some some standard japanese saws


Firstly what surprised me was I came up with the same handle to blade length ratio (about 1.2). One difference is in the strength and weight of the back where I used 1.5 mm brass folded over. I also used brass fittings which added overall weight to the saws. I reckon this gives me a saw with a much more positive feel.

The short backed saw I made for Chris Wynne of Thomas Llyod Guitars so I no longer have it. Instead of making another short back (all my saws come apart so I could swap out the backs) I've found I rarely need a short back and just swap cross cut and ripping blades accordingly.

All right... lots of replies.

I'll get back to each of you, 'casue I value the comments. Right now I just want to do a quick 'update'... I'll 'time poor'.

I use the double sided saws and the one with the very short 'back', like in Bob's bottom pic, the top saw.
Either way, the weakness of the designs (combined with my heavy hands) get brought out.
Short back = focal point of any 'stuff ups'.
doube blade = not much material either side of the handle = focal point of any stuff ups.

Sean -

you are asking a comparative technical question about non-indigenous adaptation of tools within an anthropological development concept.

- Damn right, its not a poor workman blaming his tools...not at all. !

Yeah, I know its me... and some of the replies (which I intend to harass the posters for more details) indicate the 'problems'.
But seriously: when the double blade version goes 'twang' at the smallest stuff up, and the balde shoots off across the room... its not just me, its more factors.

Thanks for the replies so far... give me a few days, and I'll have specific questions for all of you.