Puzzled over a new Japanese plane

**Plonee** · 8th October 2013, 04:03 AM

Hi,

I'm not that into woodworking but from time to time I make some simple stuff for home use. Recently a friend from Japan bought a Japanese plane (kanna) for me. He knows nothing about woodworking, but he asked around and found a kanna which he was told is of good quality for its price, remains sharp for a long time, and it's assembled and ready to use. The kanna is Tsunesaboro with a "curved back" 50mm powder steel blade.

Everything looked good on paper or as is more common today on screen. But when my friend arrived we opened the box and looked carefully at the (not assembled) parts, we became suspicious that this kanna is a fake or a different model.

The blade is very different from the photo on the Tsunesaboro web site. The "curved back" blades shown on the web site are bare metal however the blade I got is painted with some kind of black lacquer. The shape of the top of the blade is different - in the photo it's shaped like a hexagon with soft corners while mine is round with sharp corners. Most importantly, on the web site there are 4 distinct writings on the blade, but on my blade 2 of them are missing (the top right writing and the bottom left square stamp).

What further raised our suspicion are several quality issues:

1. The kanna was anything but ready to use. The blades were not installed in the body. I read and watched a few tutorials on kanna so I installed the blades myself.

2. The chip breaker (small blade) doesn't fit properly. It requires many taps to get it into place and the pin that holds it in place bends out considerably. The sides of the chip breaker push hard on the sides of the pin so it bends. I know this can be fixed by flattening the corners of the chip breaker, but I don't really want to mess with it as I might flatten one side more than the other and render it useless.

3. The bottom of the body is not slightly arched as I saw in diagrams of kanna. I understand that only the front and mouth should touch the wood. Between those points should be a slight arch to minimize friction. However in my kanna when I hold it against a metal ruler I can see that the ruler touches the mouth and a point about two thirds of the way towards the front. Even between those two points there's no arch just a very small inconsistent gap.

4. Another problem is that the mouth (where the blade exits the bottom) is too tight. When the blade only slightly protrudes from the bottom then it leaves less than 0.5mm for shavings to pass through. The plane functions more or less ok this way and it takes nice very thin shavings. However I need the plane for rougher work to remove much thicker shavings. If I tap the blade so it protrudes a bit more (but still less than 1mm) it nearly blocks the mouth. Then the first shaving gets stuck and I have to remove the blade to clear it.

5. Just now discovered - the rear of the body is about to split. There's a hairline crack running from the bed of the blade to the back. It is a single crack and although at the moment very thin it's visible on the bed of the blade, the top and the bottom of the body.

Update:
My friend contacted Tsunesaboro and sent them photos of the blade to ask them if the blade is indeed of their making. Their response was that the blade is theirs, but it looks different than the web site because they changed the design of the blade head and photos on their web site are of the older design. About the missing writings they said that on blades 50mm and smaller they only inscribe some of the writings because inscribing all of them warps the blade. Sounds total bullsh!t to me.

So it seems that the kanna or at least the blade is made by Tsunesaboro. I see no reason for them to claim they made a blade that's not reallty theirs, although their excuses are hard to believe. As a side note they are not easy to contact either by phone or mail. My friend says they are not polite ie. don't apologize and don't care if the customer is satisfied. I wonder if there's any point confronting them about all the quality issues. My friend is willing to do it but I see that it really bothers him so maybe I'll just let it go.

I'm really disappointed with this kanna and I'm not sure what to do with it.

I'll be grateful for information and suggestions.

Plonee.

Kanna out of the box:
kanna.jpg

Blade front, places of missing writings are marked:
blade1.jpg

Blade side:
blade2.jpg

Photo of curved back blade from Tsunesaboro web site:
real_curved_back.jpg

Photo of regular blade from Tsunesaboro web site:
real_regular.jpg

Chip breaker pin bent:
chip_breaker.jpg

Bottom rear - crack visible:
crack_bottom.jpg

Blade bed - same crack visible:
crack_bed.jpg

Bottom:
front_bottom.jpg

**Gadge** · 8th October 2013, 08:24 AM

Hi Plonee,

Any chance of a photo of your plane and a link to the website where you saw the assembled plane?

Regards,
Gadge

**planebill** · 8th October 2013, 08:30 AM

Well, this is going to be a disappointing answer for you Im sure: I cant help at all but I can offer advice and that is- be very wary of anything bought from Japan. It seems that there is a culture of bait and switch going on over there. They are supposed to be all about honor and manners and doing the right things but that certainly has not been my experience"S". Twice I have bought either tools or services having to do with tools from two of the biggest (known to us) and popular dealers of J-tools and both of these transactions left a very bad taste in my mouth. Both times I was outright lied to, plain and simple!

They say one thing and then either turn around and do something else or deny ever saying what they said even if there is written proof that they did in fact say what they said, like in an email or as the case might be, several emails. And these two dealers are praised by many people but I am sorry to say that I can not do the same, I wish I could. Oh well, what are you gonna do?

Am I just dealing with the wrong dealers here?? I have better luck on e bay most of the time. Could I see the plane? If you decide you do not want to keep it Id like to have a chance at buying it. Just out of curiosity, is So still an active member and/or participant here? I hope I have the name correct. I am speaking about the proprietor of Japan Tool. I have tried recently to contact the owner through the stores contact form to no avail. I will try that store and see if my luck is any better there. Again, if you decide to rid yourself of this plane or if you decide that it is simply just not what you need or want, Id be interested.

**Pam** · 8th October 2013, 11:58 AM

As far as those Tsunesaburo "ready to go" kanna, Stu Tierney of Tools From Japan (.com) has been quite active in working with Tsunesaburo to make them good and available. I haven't tried one, nor has he been talking about these kanna online in any of the fora I typically visit, but I'd shoot him an email.

Pam

**Plonee** · 8th October 2013, 08:27 PM

@Gadge -
Added photos to the original message.
Web site is of a Japanese shop, I don't have it.

@planebill -
I haven't made up my mind yet, but if I'll decide to sell the kanna you'll be the first to know.

@Pam -
My friend bought the kanna from a Japanese shop not from Tools From Japan.

Plonee.

**Evanism** · 9th October 2013, 12:08 AM

Hmmm. Planebill, I'll try to be nice. I read your post and had a pretty good mind to give you both barrels, but I won't.

Plonee, every single Kanna comes without any setup what so ever. Only the rarest few do and they are usually in two camps: toys and ultra expensive. Even the ultras are then set up.

I'll dig around for you on an excellent video to tune up your Kanna. What you mention is the very first travail of every new Kanna owner. Because they don't come set up out of the box you need to "tune" it.

Being brief, this encompasses: flattening the bottom, flattening the breaker edge, flattening the back of the blade (very carefully), sharpening the blade, trimming the back of the opening where the blade rubs the body, trimming the mouth, post body flattening operations of scraping between the back and blade opening and scraping between the front and the blade opening.

Sounds like a lot, but it isn't.

With the pin, don't hammer in the chip breaker. It needs only the lightest of taps. I would be completely unconcerned about the crack you mention unless it actually dissects the body fully. It is oak. It is very tough.

The Tsunesaburo are excellent Kanna. The one you have is very traditional and easy to maintain. It will give you a lifetime of service.

**Evanism** · 9th October 2013, 12:20 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQytHrqMsug

He does waffle on, but it is very good info. Watch all 3.

If you want really awesome info, buy Des Kings book on Shoji, book 1. He has devoted about a third of the book discussing every conceivable minutiae. It is an excellent book.

**Evanism** · 9th October 2013, 12:28 AM

I cant see much of the blade on my iPad, but that looks fake. I can't see the hard steel / soft iron lamination and it looks like it hasn't been forged properly. The back... Er, the back is HIDEOUS.

Take some more photos. Looks like you've been ripped off.

**Pam** · 9th October 2013, 01:01 AM

Originally Posted by Plonee

...@Pam -
My friend bought the kanna from a Japanese shop not from Tools From Japan.

I kind of knew that, a guess based on your problem description: but if you want help with your kanna, as you implied you do, I'd email Stu, who knows most everything about those kanna.

Pam

**Pam** · 9th October 2013, 01:12 AM

Originally Posted by Evanism

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQytHrqMsug

He does waffle on, but it is very good info. Watch all 3.

If you want really awesome info, buy Des Kings book on Shoji, book 1. He has devoted about a third of the book discussing every conceivable minutiae. It is an excellent book.

I'll say, but no fun at all if you already know .... I mean that, I hated having to wade through that stuff one more time. However, probably great for someone brand new to kanna. OTOH, why would that someone be making shoji?

Pam

**Plonee** · 9th October 2013, 03:45 AM

@Pam -

I don't feel comfortable asking Stu to deal with a product that was not purchased from his business.
If he sees this thread and offers to help...

@Evanism -

I attached two more photos of the blade.
Note that the blade is made of powder steel (supposed to at least) which may look different from alloys. I don't know.
Tsunesaburo claim its their blade, why would they do it if it's fake?

I've already watched the kanna tutorials, those you linked to and others, so I know (in theory) how to prepare a kanna. But the kanna I got is specifically sold as "ready to use" (I accept that I should install the blades). Anyway at this point I don't want to make any modification or use the kanna, because I may be able to return it.

Regarding the crack, it isn't just a small "local" crack. The same crack is visible on the blade bed, top, bottom and back end of the body. That means that the rear part of is completely split. I don't think this is acceptable for a new kanna.

Thanks,

Plonee.

blade3.jpg blade4.jpg

**planebill** · 9th October 2013, 05:45 AM

Evanism, Do whatever the heck you want to do. Id first like to know what has offended you so. Also, I speak only from the experiences I have had, personally so you can say absolutely jack about what I wrote, its all true and if what happened to me happened to you I guess you would be little miss sunshine about it all?.Besides that, its not like I got on naming names or saying exactly what the dirty deed done to me were. I thought I showed amazing restraint in my generalization and in my ambiguousness. Sorry you are so sensitive.

**Pam** · 9th October 2013, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by Plonee

@Pam -

I don't feel comfortable asking Stu to deal with a product that was not purchased from his business.
If he sees this thread and offers to help...
...

I don't know, guess I prefer to ask someone who might actually know something. When I ran a software development company, I'd often help people who most likely wouldn't pay me immediately, especially if it were a 5 or 10 minute answer. Often it was cheap publicity and good will, and every now and then they'd hire us later. Maybe Stu could contact Tsunesaburo for you, who could in turn provide a quality replacement. Your dai split is real. If I had made the irons, I would want to take care of the dai, wouldn't want my stuff complained about, would see an opportunity for positively influencing a lot of people and learning who was mucking up my rep.

Pam

**Schtoo** · 10th October 2013, 01:06 AM

I'll keep this short.

The blade looks genuine. Because it's narrow, the markings probably don't fit. I have a 55mm version of that plane here, and the blade is visually identical. The additional stamps would be not too easy to fit in the smaller space. Tsunesaburo have confirmed that it's theirs, so that's not in question.

The dai appears to have been kept in a relatively dry environment for quite some time. With the blade in, the wood has shrunk, the blade has become tight and spread the dai out, splitting it. When it was new, the blade should have been a tight, but working fit. After sitting on a shelf somewhere dry for a time, that's not going to happen. The grain orientation (masame) doesn't help in this regard, as the dai will shrink width wise more than any other direction.

It happens. Tsunesaburo knows that. Tsunesaburo also replaces the dai for us, no questions asked, when it does happen. If you can get that entire plane back to where it was bought, and have them return it to Tsunesaburo, the dai should be replaced on it. If the store you bought it from will do that, also ask for the dai to be made a little loose, and for the grain orientation to be oi-masame. Planes bought locally really need to be returned to Tsunesaburo for correction as that's what's expected to happen. Because we export them all, we can have a replacement sent to us, mostly cut to fit, and we send it out where the owner of the plane can do the final fitting. It's too much to ask for the plane to be returned all the way here for that, which is why we can do this but Tsunesaburo generally won't do that for local stores. They know it costs about $10 to ship a plane back to them, and less to send back to the local store, which is the cost of doing business and the local store is expected to cover that. Which they do.

I don't know how Tsunesaburo treated your friend or why it would seem that they were not 'nice'. In my experience, they tend to be very helpful, if short on pleasantries. They're always busy and don't do the whole 'super polite' thing, but they will help make things right. They also tend to avoid dealing directly with the end customer, unless it's at a tool show of some kind. They wish to look after the folks that are selling their planes day in/day out, and as such, aren't really set up to deal with the general public and all that requires in terms of niceties and such.

(However, we sent them someone from Canada to go collect a plane from them. They ended up taking him out to dinner and filling him with beer. This was not expected, but not really surprising. That's what they do.)

The plane, as you got it, was not what it should have been. I don't know that fault can be directed at anyone in particular, and none of it was deliberate at all. That plane was intended to be used here in Japan, and if it had stayed here, would probably be as ready to use as the day it was made. Unless it was kept in an air conditioned room for a time, or sent somewhere dry, at which point the dai starts shrinking and splitting.

(In my experience, very few tool stores here in Japan really know what they're doing with regard to using tools. They can get you anything you ask for, so long as you know what to ask for and how to ask for it. Walk in and ask for a plane for figured hardwood to send to your friend in Australia, they'll try and sell you something that they think might work. Go and ask for a plane with oi-masame dai, 45° bedding angle and a ebony mouth insert, and they'll order it in for you, but they'll never think of it themselves.

That's not necessarily a slight on them at all, just how it all works here. It is very rare to find someone selling the tools that has actually spent meaningful time using them. I know that because most of the makers I've spoken to think me to be the same, until I start asking questions that they've never been asked before. Almost every store where I've asked questions about actually using the things, they know as much as the press release tells them. No press release, they know what colour it is and what it's called and that's about it.

It also makes it very frustrating to be forced to go through a wholesale dealer for tools. More often than not, the wholesale dealers are even more clueless about actually using the tools. Not all, but most are so painful to deal with that we won't do it.)

If you need a replacement dai for the plane, let me know. I have one here for that exact plane that should work a lot better and be better able to cope with your climate. It won't be free, but I promise it won't break the bank at all.

Stu.

**Plonee** · 10th October 2013, 04:38 AM

Stu,