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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by silentC View Post
    If it is determined that the cyclist has part or all of the culpability for the collision, they pay up to 50% of the damages (cyclist insurance is not compulsory).
    Two points come to mind -
    1. This thread was started in an attempt to show how unjust the law and sentencing is. Having to pay (even 50%) for someone else's mistake, to me, is most certainly unjust.
    2. I think it's long overdue for ALL road users to be licensed and insured.
    Cheers.

    Vernon.
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  3. #32
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    Yes the mindset of the average Australian motorist prevents such a scheme from ever really being accepted here.

    I've asked this before: with your scheme to make licensing and insurance compulsory, how will you handle the bunch of kids who ride past my place to school every day? Will they have to be licensed and insured too, or will they be prohibited from riding their bikes in the street?
    "I don't practice what I preach because I'm not the kind of person I'm preaching to."

  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by silentC View Post
    Yes the mindset of the average Australian motorist prevents such a scheme from ever really being accepted here.
    The "lets be fair and just, and make people responsible for their own actions" mindset?? Is that a foreign concept to cyclists?

    Quote Originally Posted by silentC View Post
    I've asked this before: with your scheme to make licensing and insurance compulsory, how will you handle the bunch of kids who ride past my place to school every day? Will they have to be licensed and insured too, or will they be prohibited from riding their bikes in the street?
    Yes, if they are road users, why not? It doesn't have to be expensive or prohibitive.
    Cheers.

    Vernon.
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  5. #34
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    You keep referring to cyclists as if that is all they are. This is part of the mindset I refer to. There is no one point of view held by all cyclists. We are all different. All most cyclists want is to be treated 'fairly and justly' by other road users.

    But take it up with the government of the Netherlands. It's their law. We don't have it here and I doubt we ever will.

    You can't make a 10 year old responsible for a bike accident. You have kids yourself, you know how ridiculous that statement is.
    "I don't practice what I preach because I'm not the kind of person I'm preaching to."

  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by silentC View Post
    You keep referring to cyclists as if that is all they are. This is part of the mindset I refer to. There is no one point of view held by all cyclists. We are all different. All most cyclists want is to be treated 'fairly and justly' by other road users.
    You seem to lump all "non-cyclists" together with your reference to their "mindset", yet I expect that the majority of ALL road users just want to be treated "fairly and justly". The scheme you mention however does the opposite of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by silentC View Post
    You can't make a 10 year old responsible for a bike accident. You have kids yourself, you know how ridiculous that statement is.
    I never said you can make a 10 year old responsible for a bike accident (they are your words). Certainly a ridiculous statement as you phrased it.

    You can however ensure that if they cause an accident that insurance will cover the costs incurred by the other party.
    Cheers.

    Vernon.
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  7. #36
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    You seem to lump all "non-cyclists" together with your reference to their "mindset", yet I expect that the majority of ALL road users just want to be treated "fairly and justly".
    You obviously don't ride a push bike on the road. If you did, we wouldn't even be having this argument, you would see it for yourself. I had some idiot try to kill me yesterday when I was about to turn right. Had my arm out signalling a right turn. He overtook me across double lines. He saw a push bike and had to get in front. We call it MGIF. Must get in front. Can't be behind a push bike, even for the 5 seconds it would have taken me to turn off the road out of his path. That sort of thing happens ALL THE TIME. The prevailing mindset amongst non-cycling motorists is that push bikes are toys and should not be on the road. They should be ridden in parks or on bike paths. That is the mindset that we are up against. I have seen it on threads here, I see it in comments sections of newspaper articles, letters to the editor, people talking in the pub. And no doubt I will see it here very shortly if this thread runs much longer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vernonv View Post
    I never said you can make a 10 year old responsible for a bike accident (they are your words). Certainly a ridiculous statement as you phrased it.

    You can however ensure that if they cause an accident that insurance will cover the costs incurred by the other party.
    In order for an insurance company to pay a claim, they have to establish who was at fault. This means holding one party responsible for it. I am now using the word "responsible" with its alternate meaning of 'being held accountable for'.

    So you want to license kids to ride their bikes on the street? What about skateboards, scooters, roller skates? Billy carts too?

    Really...
    "I don't practice what I preach because I'm not the kind of person I'm preaching to."

  8. #37
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    If your kid accidentally throws a cricket ball through a window, will insurance cover it? Yes? So what's the difference?

    Quote Originally Posted by silentC View Post
    What about skateboards, scooters, roller skates? Billy carts too?
    Non issue. They are not legally allowed on the road.
    Cheers.

    Vernon.
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  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vernonv View Post
    They are not legally allowed on the road.
    Who told you that? They most certainly are and are subject to many of the same road rules. But they are considered to be pedestrians, not vehicles, and so they can also ride on the footpath. They are not allowed on certain classes of road. But they can certainly be ridden to school or down to the shops.
    "I don't practice what I preach because I'm not the kind of person I'm preaching to."

  10. #39
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    I would think anyone on the road unsupervised would have to take responsibility, for their own self preservation at least, what ever they are on even foot.
    Hugh

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  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by A Duke View Post
    I would think anyone on the road unsupervised would have to take responsibility, for their own self preservation at least, what ever they are on even foot.
    Yes I do agree. Kids need to be taught responsibility and if they are too young for that should be supervised by an adult. It's really just the legal aspects of it. Kids under a certain age can't be convicted of crimes or charged with offences. I'm just saying that it's not as simple as just saying "license and insure all road users". I absolutely agree that every adult should be responsible for their own safety and the safety of other road users.

    Specifically with regard to cycling, what I find is that a lot of other road users just don't accept that I have a right to be there and they treat you as an almost stationary object like a pedestrian. I know from the altercations and conversations I have had that they expect you to be riding in the gutter, or preferably in a park somewhere. It is not accepted in this country as a legitimate form of road use. We are a long way from that.

    So what happens is you get the 'punishment pass', which is where they drive as close to you as they can to 'teach you a lesson'. Or you get people pulling out in front of you or left hooking (overtake then turn left in front of you) or right hook (turn across in front of you). Things they would never do to another car. They do these things either out of spite or ignorance. Either way, it is a problem with perception of cycling as a legitimate form of transport.
    "I don't practice what I preach because I'm not the kind of person I'm preaching to."

  12. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by silentC View Post
    But they are considered to be pedestrians...
    As I said "non issue".
    Cheers.

    Vernon.
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  13. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vernonv View Post
    As I said "non issue".
    So you are saying that a kid on a scooter riding on the road is somehow different to a kid on a push bike? You said "all road users". Are they not road users? This is what I'm talking about. It's your proposal and even you can't seem to make sense of it.

    What sort of criteria will kids have to meet to obtain one of these push bike licenses? Will it be the same test as for adults? For example will they be required to sit a multiple choice test demonstrating their knowledge of the road rules?
    "I don't practice what I preach because I'm not the kind of person I'm preaching to."

  14. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by silentC View Post
    So you are saying that a kid on a scooter riding on the road is somehow different to a kid on a push bike? You said "all road users". Are they not road users? This is what I'm talking about. It's your proposal and even you can't seem to make sense of it.
    I'm pretty sure no-one is including pedestrians in any of this. I'm certainly not, are you? If you want to include them then you are on your own.

    Quote Originally Posted by silentC View Post
    What sort of criteria will kids have to meet to obtain one of these push bike licenses? Will it be the same test as for adults? For example will they be required to sit a multiple choice test demonstrating their knowledge of the road rules?
    The license (for cyclists) is more about the vehicle, than the rider ... maybe we should call is "bicycle registration" for the pedants among us. However I think it's wise to provide all cyclists with education on the road rules ... some I have seen sure don't seem to know them, or maybe they feel that they don't apply to them ... don't know.
    Cheers.

    Vernon.
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  15. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vernonv View Post
    I'm pretty sure no-one is including pedestrians in any of this. I'm certainly not, are you? If you want to include them then you are on your own.
    You said "I think it's long overdue for ALL road users to be licensed and insured". So if someone rides a scooter or a skateboard on the road, are they using it or are they not? If they are (and I fail to see how you could argue otherwise, unless you think they levitate above it) then explain how they are different with regard to your desire to have road users insured. Have there never been accidents caused by skateboarders or kids on scooters?

    some I have seen sure don't seem to know them, or maybe they feel that they don't apply to them

    That is just too funny. If you think that is limited to cyclists, you clearly don't spend much time in a car either!

    Seeing as most cyclists that you would see are also drivers, their understanding of the road rules would be as good as any in the population. Again you are trying to create some artificial divide between people who ride bikes and the rest of the public.

    So now we turn to registration, I wondered how long it would take. You want kid's bikes to have number plates too? And to what end?
    "I don't practice what I preach because I'm not the kind of person I'm preaching to."

  16. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by silentC View Post
    blah, blah, blah
    As I said I'm not including pedestrians. I'm not sure I can be any clearer.


    Cheers.

    Vernon.
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