Thread: ShortCuts Table saw Survey

Hi Graham. And welcome to the forum!
I have just filled out your survey.

Maybe I am in the minority, but I think the SawStop technology is the best thing since sliced bread!
I whole heartedly support what the inventor of SawStop is doing.

I have seen some terrible accidents in the construction industry over the last 21 years and if this technology becomes mandatory and increases the price of a table saw by $200 - $300, then so be it, I can live with that quite easily.

I could not live with myself if one of my employees lost a finger or several fingers because I was too miserable to pay an extra $300.

I hope this technology is made mandatory as soon as possible.
Bring it on.
Yes the Owner/Inventor of SawStop will get very rich and quite possibly have a monopoly in the tablesaw market.
Good for him, he deserves it.
There are other people/companies out there who have cornered their respective market and are making billions.
I dont see many people whinging about them. They accept it and move on.
As will the table saw market. In a few years, this technology will become common and people will wonder what all the fuss was about.

By the way, great first thread! Well done!

Regards, Justin.

Thanks for that Justin, your opinion counts - I hope to participate more when I get back from a cruise to Alaska in 3 weeks
Graham
ShortCuts Home Page

Originally Posted by justinmcf

Hi Graham. And welcome to the forum!
I have just filled out your survey.

Maybe I am in the minority, but I think the SawStop technology is the best thing since sliced bread!
I whole heartedly support what the inventor of SawStop is doing.

I have seen some terrible accidents in the construction industry over the last 21 years and if this technology becomes mandatory and increases the price of a table saw by $200 - $300, then so be it, I can live with that quite easily.

I could not live with myself if one of my employees lost a finger or several fingers because I was too miserable to pay an extra $300.

I hope this technology is made mandatory as soon as possible.
Bring it on.
Yes the Owner/Inventor of SawStop will get very rich and quite possibly have a monopoly in the tablesaw market.
Good for him, he deserves it.
There are other people/companies out there who have cornered their respective market and are making billions.
I dont see many people whinging about them. They accept it and move on.
As will the table saw market. In a few years, this technology will become common and people will wonder what all the fuss was about.

By the way, great first thread! Well done!

Regards, Justin.

I guess one would argue that of course it would be an advantage to have a saw with this feature and I suppose it would give the user some kind of security thinking a serious accident is not going to happen.. Maybe this is not a good thing to be thinking and puts us in a mode of false security and may lead some of us to not take precautions that we may take at the present time to prevent serious accidents of this nature.

You cannot condemn the idea and its function, it is great and anything that may prevent a serious accident is most welcome but I don't think we should run away with the idea that this device will prevent all serious accident on a table saw. there are many bad things happen on the TS that is not necessarily caused by placing a limb in front of the blade.

I have been using a TS for 20 years plus and touch wood had no mishap with it. I guess in a company work environment it may be a good idea because it is difficult to monitor users all the time to make sure they are doing the right thing but for the home or hobby woodworker, I am not sure compulsory legislation is called for so we all have to have this regardless of our own thoughts on the matter.

Would I have one of these fitted to my current TS ? I don't think so but on the other hand, if I was in the market for a new machine and all things being equal, I would probably consider buying a machine incorporating this function but I would also be swayed by other functions that any other machine had to offer.

I am greatly against monopoly of any product but I guess there is not much we can do about that.

As mentioned above, there are many bad and serious accidents with the TS that is not caused by directly placing a hand or finger in front of the spinning blade.

Munruben, thanks for participating in the survey and I do respct your opinions
Graham
ShortCuts Home Page

Originally Posted by munruben

I guess one would argue that of course it would be an advantage to have a saw with this feature and I suppose it would give the user some kind of security thinking a serious accident is not going to happen.. Maybe this is not a good thing to be thinking and puts us in a mode of false security and may lead some of us to not take precautions that we may take at the present time to prevent serious accidents of this nature.

You cannot condemn the idea and its function, it is great and anything that may prevent a serious accident is most welcome but I don't think we should run away with the idea that this device will prevent all serious accident on a table saw. there are many bad things happen on the TS that is not necessarily caused by placing a limb in front of the blade.

I have been using a TS for 20 years plus and touch wood had no mishap with it. I guess in a company work environment it may be a good idea because it is difficult to monitor users all the time to make sure they are doing the right thing but for the home or hobby woodworker, I am not sure compulsory legislation is called for so we all have to have this regardless of our own thoughts on the matter.

Would I have one of these fitted to my current TS ? I don't think so but on the other hand, if I was in the market for a new machine and all things being equal, I would probably consider buying a machine incorporating this function but I would also be swayed by other functions that any other machine had to offer.

I am greatly against monopoly of any product but I guess there is not much we can do about that.

As mentioned above, there are many bad and serious accidents with the TS that is not caused by directly placing a hand or finger in front of the spinning blade.

Hi Graham. Welcome to the forums.
I have filled out your survey.

Originally Posted by justinmcf

Hi Graham. And welcome to the forum!
I have just filled out your survey.

Maybe I am in the minority, but I think the SawStop technology is the best thing since sliced bread!
I whole heartedly support what the inventor of SawStop is doing.

I have seen some terrible accidents in the construction industry over the last 21 years and if this technology becomes mandatory and increases the price of a table saw by $200 - $300, then so be it, I can live with that quite easily.

I could not live with myself if one of my employees lost a finger or several fingers because I was too miserable to pay an extra $300.

I hope this technology is made mandatory as soon as possible.
Bring it on.
Yes the Owner/Inventor of SawStop will get very rich and quite possibly have a monopoly in the tablesaw market.
Good for him, he deserves it.
There are other people/companies out there who have cornered their respective market and are making billions.
I dont see many people whinging about them. They accept it and move on.
As will the table saw market. In a few years, this technology will become common and people will wonder what all the fuss was about.

By the way, great first thread! Well done!

Regards, Justin.

Justin, I agree that the technology is a good one, but your belief that it only costs an extra $200-300 is a little erroneous. When I priced a sawstop it was $5500, with most of the competitors saws being in the vicinity of $1800-2500.

As a saw only, the saw stop sits equal with most of it's competitors, but has nothing that puts it out in front, until the blade stop feature is added. Is that worth a 125% + price premium on its competitors? I don't know, but for me it meant that I could purchase other equipment like a dust collector and a few other bits and pieces and still have some change.

I ended up purchasing an MBS300, which when compared to the sawstop (if you ignored the sawstop technology) was a better saw in my opinion.

I was led to believe it would cost you in the vicinity of $200-300 to replace the cartridge and blade. Maybe that is where you got the $200-300 figure from.

At the time of my enquiries, there was no facility to accept a dado blade, and as I wanted to have the ability to fit one, it actually become a deterrent to me. That situation may now have changed, I have had no need to check.

What I don't like about sawstop is their attempts to have the government legislate that their technology becomes mandatory, and as they have the patents for it, then all their competitors need to licence it from them. If they believe that their saw and technology is so great, then it should be able to stand on its own merits.

I think it comes down to being responsible for your own actions.
We are living in an age where if we can blame someone/something else for own actions then that is the norm.
I think if you are going to want to use a piece of machinery be it at work or at home in the shed then you need to be conversant with the operation of that machine in all its modes and also how to operate it safely. To put your faith in a safety feature alone is NOT the way forward.
Any tool can be dangerous/lethal if not used properly and if you are not going to adhere to its safe operation then who is to blame when something happens?
The whole world wants us to wrapped up in cotton wool and blame the other bloke when we have a problem
If you think through your method of operating a machine and have an understanding of what can go wrong and be prepared for it then that is the mind set you should have.
I do agree that accidents can and do happen but we need to work safely and carefully all the time no matter what

I just took the survey graham.

My opinion is this: there are many ways that you can have an accident with a tablesaw, and sawstop only claims to prevent one of them. We still need to train ourselves to use the saw properly to avoid all the other potential accidents.

Personally, while I see the sawstop as a great piece of technology, I fear that it will lull new woodworkers into a false sense of security and not familiarise themselves with the safe operating procedures such as never trail your fingers behind the board in line with the blade, always maintain pressure on the stock between the fence and the blade and 101 other ways to avoid transforming an otherwise harmless component of your project into a dangerous projectile.

To the best of my knowledge (and I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong) the ONLY tablesaw-like product that comes with a comprehensive safety training package is the TRITON. The DVD goes through a comprehensive safety brief before going into different types of cuts and safe work practices are reinforced at all times, not just in avoiding cuts but also other dangers.

All saws have a number of features to minimise the risk of kickbacks, I suppose. they also come equipped with guards and pushsticks to keep our fingers away from the blade so do we really need a compulsory saw stop? there are other aftermarket additions such as grrippers etc that keep hands out of harms way as well, and none of them take your saw out of action for a week while you get a new cartridge if the blade accidentally touches them. or do you just have a few spare cartridges on the shelf just in case?

Let people choose their own safety package and if we do need to legislate for anything let it be to include adequate training as part of that safety package. If we have to legislate for safety I would rather see legislation introduced so that all machinery including tablesaws come with a safety training DVD, before i would see compulsory sawstops.

Just my opinion

doug

I've also taken your survey Graham.
While i believe the sawstop technology is pretty good i am firmly against it being forced onto the public in the way it is being in the US. I also feel that the price is frankly outrageous, as has been mentioned saw for saw its no better than any other standard TS. The idea of adding another $2500 to the price of saws is IMO a clear case of gouging & trying to force the market to adopt a product that is held by a monopoly smells of someone trying to get rich quick rather than someone who cares about the safety of woodworkers.
As has been mentioned the sawstop safety mechanism will not stop all accidents & there is no guarantee there will not be false trips which destroys the blade. I recently had a minor accident on a TS, i 'taped' my index finger against the back of the blade as i passed a piece of timber thru. Completely my fault, i was being careless & not paying attention. If a sawstop was fitted to the machine i still would have lost my index finger nail i have absolutely no doubt but i would also have destroyed a valuable blade to boot.
If the owners of sawstop are serious about our safety let them release the copyright on the product & make it available to all manufacturers. The price on the safety mechanism would quickly come down to a much more reasonable level. But of course thats not going to happen, not when there's a mountain of cash to be made.

Yep - have done the survey for you.

Whilst I don't knock the Sawstop technology, either, I think it ought to be kept voluntary. For employers responsible for the safety of their employees, it may be a (tax deductible) godsend, but for me it's just another high-tech thing to go wrong. If I had a saw with one fitted I sure as hell wouldn't be relying on it to save my pinkies! I guess I'm a bit of a hypocrite in that I like the mandatory safety features in cars ( though I do worry how many air bags are going to cause trouble as the cars fitted with them age!). I hope they are never necessary, too, but there is a bit of a difference in that on the road, there are a lot of other mugs that are responsible for your safety as well as yourself.

As someone else said, gadgets like this could lull operators into a false sense of security, and promote sloppy work habits so that they are more likely to trigger it, or experience kickback, etc. I seriously doubt we can ever make the world 100% safe, which is not meant to imply we shouldn't keep trying to help make it better...

It won't bother me as I recently bought what I hope will be the saw that sees me out - just don't make it mandatory to retrofit Sawstop, please!

Cheers,

Rather than lobby against a safety feature (which is a hard sell), get an interest group together (other manufacturers may be interested in pushing this issue, so you can have industry support) to add a rider to any proposed legislation that mandatory safety functionality cannot be patent encumbered; ie they want their particular technology adopted as the model, then their IP has to be freely available to anyone who wants to use it. This means that all companies have an incentive to innovate in order to differentiate themselves; they can make improvements (such as a brake that does not destroy the blade, perhaps) to the mandatory design, and these remain protected unless they get made mandatory too.

On the unethical side, (which is what I think lobbying to boost sales of your product is, so saw stop becomes fair game in my book) you can also see what you can do to stall or slow down the legislation; wide ranging consultation, someone who has been injured by a saw stop saw (not necessarily by the anti-cut technology, but by kickback....muddy the waters so the issue requires further study, preferably by a low funded government group which will put it on its forward work program and get around to it eventually), sock puppets on woodworking forums claiming to have been injured (even a minor nick, photographic proof posted on sites etc)...so that by the time legislation is introduced, the patents have expired.

Hi Geoff.

I understand that the real price of the SawStop is appox $5500.
And whilst it is a great table saw irrespective of the technology, it is not any better than other table saws in that price range.
Whether the cost of the technology is going to increase the price of the saw by $300 or $3000. For me, that is an acceptable price to pay.
I can not estimate what other people suggest is an acceptable price to pay, that is their decision

I am sorry, I should have stated clearly where i got the figure of $200 - $300 from.

I got that figure from the original poster's assumption that this technology included in the most basic table saw would cost "$100's".

I also assume that if the technology becomes mandatory, the price will fall quickly and dramatically, as it should become cheaper to manufacture and implement in new table saws.

I absolutely disagree with all posters who state that this technology will lull anyone into a false sense of security.
Just because my car has seat belts does not lull me into the false sense of security that I can race along the streets at 150kph.
I still follow the road rules and mostly I use my common sense.
This rings true whether I am driving down the road, using a hand held electric planer, or using a table saw.

I dont like the way the inventor has went about his business either.
I would love to see the owner of SawStop giving his invention to the world for free, but I understand why he does not take this action.
Of course he wants a big slice of the pie. He invented it, good luck to him.

I would love to hear what other Tool companies think about this technology when they are sitting in their boardrooms working on a contingency plan.
I guess they would be saying, "now why didn't I think of that invention."

Justin.

Originally Posted by IanW

Yep - have done the survey for you.

Whilst I don't knock the Sawstop technology, either, I think it ought to be kept voluntary. For employers responsible for the safety of their employees, it may be a (tax deductible) godsend, but for me it's just another high-tech thing to go wrong. If I had a saw with one fitted I sure as hell wouldn't be relying on it to save my pinkies! I guess I'm a bit of a hypocrite in that I like the mandatory safety features in cars ( though I do worry how many air bags are going to cause trouble as the cars fitted with them age!). I hope they are never necessary, too, but there is a bit of a difference in that on the road, there are a lot of other mugs that are responsible for your safety as well as yourself.

As someone else said, gadgets like this could lull operators into a false sense of security, and promote sloppy work habits so that they are more likely to trigger it, or experience kickback, etc. I seriously doubt we can ever make the world 100% safe, which is not meant to imply we shouldn't keep trying to help make it better...

It won't bother me as I recently bought what I hope will be the saw that sees me out - just don't make it mandatory to retrofit Sawstop, please!

Cheers,

That's pretty much how I'm thinking too.

Apparently it only costs $69 and 5 minutes work to replace the stopping mechanism and blade (obviously a cheap sawstop blade)

If they are so worried about safety why didn't they upgrade the stupid 4" dust port to something larger and why is there no dust port on the guard. Dust might end up being just as dangerous, it's just more insidious and not as spectacular. hmmm.

People and companies work on budgets. They have only so many $ to spend on workshop equipment. If it a difference of TS without saw stop and dust extraction or TS with saw stop and no dust extraction, I would prefer the dust extraction.
I do not wish an injury on anyone, but damage to lungs is not repairable and will affect one 24 hours a day for life, even when asleep.
Proper training and concentrating on the job when using machinery is the best safe way to work.

The idea of saw stop is great, but let it be optional not legislated. If it is mandatory then all manufactures should have the technology with little or no charge.

Great comments guys, thank you
Graham
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