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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evanism View Post
    ....
    If the test does proove successful, how do we get our hands on one of these plates? Is there going to be a forum buy? Jhovel offer them for sale perhaps?
    ----

    Thanks for the info on the iron permeability. I still find it a bit hard to believe though.
    Well Evan, I've been using Cast iron wheels with diamond paste for honing tungsten carbide metalworking tools for a few years. They work a treat and DON'T wear at all.

    I have quite a bit of cast iron sheet here and am contemplating making some plates for sale. So yes, once I know for sure that this particular cast iron is suitable, I could offer them for sale here - if there is any interest.

    As for the embedding the diamonds - the industry term is "charging" - I think I gave the analogy before: diamond is to cast iron as sand is to soap. The diamond crystals are very small of course (I'm using 10 micon ones and they are available down to 100th of microns). They don't go into porosities, but rather 'indent' into the cast iron. Cast iron isn't 'permeable' to diamond, it is just very 'soft' in comparison. So part of the crystals are sticking up from the surface. These are the parts or facets of the crystal that cut the steel or tungsten carbide. NOT the cast iron, it is just a 'carrier'. I'm told that the diamond particles are there for good, once embedded. They will of course wear and chip and therefore need replacing. But wiping the cast iron surface clean will not remove it's ability to hone. It removes the oil or grease that the diamonds are delivered in but not the diamonds. This statement is from my own experience.

    Also, a comment about CBN versus Diamond: diamond is pure CARBON. And carbon dissolves in steel AT HIGH TEMPERATURE. Grinding is a high temperature process - that's why there are sparks (white hot metal). It is in this white hot metal that the carbon dissolves in.
    Cubic Boron Nitrate Crystals (CBN) is nearly as hard as diamond, but it isn't carbon. So it does not deteriorate at high temperature in contact with steel.
    It is however not quite hard enough to grind tungsten carbide efficiently. You will be able to grind TC with it but it will wear the CBN quite quickly. And CBN is too expensive to 'waste' on tungsten carbide. Diamond wheels are now cheap enough to have just for that purpose.

    Honing and lapping on the other hand are cold processes. The diamonds do not disappear. They will wear of course, but very slowly.
    Cheers,
    Joe
    9"thicknesser/planer, 12" bench saw, 2Hp Dusty, 5/8" Drill press, 10" Makita drop saw, 2Hp Makita outer, the usual power tools and carpentry hand tools...

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  3. #32
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    After a bit more reseach, I learnt that the grooved plates are indeed for much larger and softer grit than the diamond past we are talking about here. The loose grit they are for is Aluminium oxide and Carborundum powder with is used with water or oil. THe grooves are sort of reservoirs for this 'gravel' (by comparison).
    Here is one source refererring the process: https://www.timbecon.com.au/sharpeni...-lapping-plate
    Cheers,
    Joe
    9"thicknesser/planer, 12" bench saw, 2Hp Dusty, 5/8" Drill press, 10" Makita drop saw, 2Hp Makita outer, the usual power tools and carpentry hand tools...

  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhovel View Post
    Well Evan, I've been using Cast iron wheels with diamond paste for honing tungsten carbide metalworking tools for a few years. They work a treat and DON'T wear at all.

    I have quite a bit of cast iron sheet here and am contemplating making some plates for sale. So yes, once I know for sure that this particular cast iron is suitable, I could offer them for sale here - if there is any interest.

    As for the embedding the diamonds - the industry term is "charging" - I think I gave the analogy before: diamond is to cast iron as sand is to soap. The diamond crystals are very small of course (I'm using 10 micon ones and they are available down to 100th of microns). They don't go into porosities, but rather 'indent' into the cast iron. Cast iron isn't 'permeable' to diamond, it is just very 'soft' in comparison. So part of the crystals are sticking up from the surface. These are the parts or facets of the crystal that cut the steel or tungsten carbide. NOT the cast iron, it is just a 'carrier'. I'm told that the diamond particles are there for good, once embedded. They will of course wear and chip and therefore need replacing. But wiping the cast iron surface clean will not remove it's ability to hone. It removes the oil or grease that the diamonds are delivered in but not the diamonds. This statement is from my own experience.

    Also, a comment about CBN versus Diamond: diamond is pure CARBON. And carbon dissolves in steel AT HIGH TEMPERATURE. Grinding is a high temperature process - that's why there are sparks (white hot metal). It is in this white hot metal that the carbon dissolves in.
    Cubic Boron Nitrate Crystals (CBN) is nearly as hard as diamond, but it isn't carbon. So it does not deteriorate at high temperature in contact with steel.
    It is however not quite hard enough to grind tungsten carbide efficiently. You will be able to grind TC with it but it will wear the CBN quite quickly. And CBN is too expensive to 'waste' on tungsten carbide. Diamond wheels are now cheap enough to have just for that purpose.

    Honing and lapping on the other hand are cold processes. The diamonds do not disappear. They will wear of course, but very slowly.
    That's a great post Joe. Very informative and well explained indeed.
    Regards, FenceFurniture

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  5. #34
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    Default Diamond Stone Sharpening Advice

    Hello. This is Bill “Tex,” as you might guess, from Texas. This is a great thread—it’s relevant to a problem I have getting my chisels sharp. I have a set of DMT diamond stones, extra coarse, course, fine and extra fine. I use a Veritas honing guide. No matter how long I sharpen, I can never get the chisels and irons sharp enough to shave hair or slice paper. I am going to try to do it like Paul Sellers does.

    I would greatly appreciate any all advice that ya’ll are kind enough to give me.

  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by bkrull View Post
    Hello. This is Bill “Tex,” as you might guess, from Texas. This is a great thread—it’s relevant to a problem I have getting my chisels sharp. I have a set of DMT diamond stones, extra coarse, course, fine and extra fine. I use a Veritas honing guide. No matter how long I sharpen, I can never get the chisels and irons sharp enough to shave hair or slice paper. I am going to try to do it like Paul Sellers does.

    I would greatly appreciate any all advice that ya’ll are kind enough to give me.
    A fine stone or compound on a substrate like MDF. Paul uses leather, but I probably would default to something a little harder.

    Your issue is that the extra fine diamond hone is really like a medium stone, but it cuts deeply and makes a very tough wire edge.

    The xx fine DMT, as far as I recall, is 3 microns and very fine, but it will still leave a bit of a burr because of how aggressive it is. That territory is better served by a stone.

    as far as the compound goes, it doesn't need to be anything ultra fine, and probably something along the lines of 1-3 microns will be more useful than the super fine compounds.

  7. #36
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    G'day Tex! I'm with DW. I much prefer a harder strop over leather and it sounds like an abrasive strop is going to help solve your problem. Cardboard or MDF are great. If you're after a little more give, soft pine is my pick. You can add a drop or two of oil on the compound when you use straight timber. It creates a little stropping slurry but save that tip until you feel the need to experiment.
    How old are your diamond stones? They cut very aggressively until they are broken in. The wire edge left behind is rough. Backing off on the pressure for the final strokes on each plate can help but best results will be had once the plates are broken in a bit.
    I like the veritas green chrome stropping compound but there are a lot of good dedicated stropping compounds out there.
    I hope that helps mate.

  8. #37
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    And I am with David (DW) and Ben.

    As mentioned, diamonds do not break down, unlike waterstones, and the scratches are deeper. Further, diamond stones generally end where waterstones begin (an "extra fine" diamond stone is 1200 grit; my coarse waterstone is 1000 grit). Now a softish strop (even horse butt leather) will simply polish the serrations left behind. It takes an awful lot of stropping to achieve a smooth edge - witness how Paul Sellers beavers away feverishly for about 5 minutes on his strop. If I use diamond stones (and I do have and use them), I may use a 600 grit as the start, but then follow it with a worn 1200 grit, which is closer to a 3000 grit, and then move on to a 6000 and 13000 grit. If I use a strop, it will be at this stage, and I know the edge is pretty smooth already. My strop is not really a strop in the technical sense ... it is green compound rubbed thinly on planed hardwood (preferred to MDF as this is abrasive when the surface wears through).

    When sharpening chisels or plane blades, the single most important factor to achieving a sharp edge is that the coarse stone creates a wire edge. If this does not occur, you are doing nothing more than polishing the face, not the edge. Stones/grits that follow only build on this. It is equally important that the wire is not large, since subsequent stones may not remove it.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Visit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on constructing handtools, handtool reviews, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.

  9. #38
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    My strop is polished granite (countertop cutoff) and the abrasives are sheet or card with honing compound, attached with dabs of masking tape.
    I followed the scanning electron microscope pictures in Leonard Lee's book. That means 1,500 grit last of all then honing with CrOx (0.5 micron) or AlOx (0.25 micron) on stiff box card or strips of filing folders.

    To monitor the process, I use a black felt marker and a 10X magnifier to follow the development of a wire edge.
    That way, I know that I have worked out over both the edge and face.

  10. #39
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    That’s great advice. I’m trying it out tomorrow. Thanks so much for your response.

  11. #40
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    More great advice. This is a dang good forum; best I’ve found. Ya’ll come to Wichita Falls to my ranch and
    I’ll smoke a bunch of barbecue. Texas barbecue is the best in the US.

  12. #41
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    Excellent website.

  13. #42
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    Default Thanks to all of y’all.

    Thanks, ya’ll. It’s been about three days since I joined this forum and already I’ve learned a heck of a lot. Appreciate you guys a heck of a lot.

  14. #43
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    Tex, I agree mate. It's such a big forum with a lot of wise oldies willing to share advice. I certainly have learned a lot from them over the years.

  15. #44
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    Default Im still a waterstone man

    Gidday

    I have 6, 8 and 10000 grit waterstones I love em and dont mind getting a bit messy

    but I always start a new blade prep with a 600 n 1200 grit ezy lap diamond stone so i guess i use both Ive noticed the diamond stone isnt cutting as well as they used to and seem prone to slip lapping [might just be in my head though lots of other stuff is]

    I'm blessed to have a radius master select a rad from my metal fabrication days and just Hone freehand on a worn 2000 grit trizac Belt loaded with Veritas Green cutting compound I can also hollow grind on this

    Can cut the hair off my arms in under a minute so I just batch hone all my handtools very fast as required That said for those interested my favorite Woodworking channel ATM is MAtt Estlea he does a great rundown on sharpening stones here:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iljvtGUZXzE

    Regards Lou
    Just Do The Best You Can With What You HAve At The Time

  16. #45
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    Hi,
    to bkrull - I have almost the same DMT diamond plates you have (X-Coarse, Coarse, Fine) but after the fine I do the last hone on a 6000 waterstone (just needs a little spray of water and not a soak) and then finish with green polishing compound on a flat piece of MDF.
    I too found that the fine diamond stone did not take my irons/chisels to a mirror finish but the waterstone does.
    New Zealand

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