Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 53
  1. #31
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    275

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KnifeGrinders View Post
    @Rob - BESS and similar sharpness testers cannot be used for evaluating cutting performance, edge holding ability etc as these depend on the blade geometry, angle and profile - for that testers like CATRA's are used that cut through a standard sheet of a test media, not a line.

    @FenceFurniture - Thailand started using the BESS edge sharpness testers in their poultry industry long before Australia and New Zealand
    if it can't determine cutting performance or edge holding performance, then what is the purpose of the test then? Not to be condecending, but wouldn't it be like saying This car has 46 Chazwazza headlights... but that isn't a measure of its brightness or the distance it illuminates... its just a measurement of how well the headlights were screwed in...

    I mean, what is the purpose of testing sharpness if it has no bearing on cutting performance?
    ​Coming Up With Complex Solutions to Non-Existent Problems Since 1985

  2. # ADS
    Google Adsense Advertisement
    Join Date
    Always
    Location
    Advertising world
    Posts
    Many





     
  3. #32
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    Sydney NSW
    Posts
    53

    Default

    Streamlining sharpening protocols is one of the purposes.
    Knowing the right time to sharpen or replace blades is important for the industry to increase throughput while reducing downtime etc.

    Provided that blade geometry is the same, like cutting blades at this or that industrial application, it can be used for evaluating cutting performance as well, but not to compare varying blades.
    Knives used at the meat and poultry processing plants are all very standard, and can also be evaluated with some reservations.

  4. #33
    FenceFurniture's Avatar
    FenceFurniture is offline The prize lies beneath - hidden in full view
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    1017m up in Katoomba, NSW
    Posts
    10,649

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KnifeGrinders View Post
    FenceFurniture - Thailand started using the BESS edge sharpness testers in their poultry industry long before Australia and New Zealand
    Uhhh, yeah, so what? I repeat:
    Quote Originally Posted by FenceFurniture View Post
    But does anyone care about this? Isn't the Thai poultry guy too busy cutting up chooks to care whether a Sydney Butcher has sharper knives than him?
    Furthermore, what does that have to do with woodwork???

    Quote Originally Posted by KnifeGrinders View Post
    @Rob - BESS and similar sharpness testers cannot be used for evaluating cutting performance, edge holding ability etc
    So why are you trying to flog one to us all (in the other thread)? And yes, I would like your justification for that. If you are saying that we need one so we can make sure that we have sharpened a chisel to the usual standard, then I say BAHHH! A complete and extravagant waste of money.

    The smartarse in me might say
    Qui habet oculos. Notitia read anathema
    Regards, FenceFurniture

    COLT DRILLS GROUP BUY
    Jan-Feb 2019 Click to send me an email

  5. #34
    FenceFurniture's Avatar
    FenceFurniture is offline The prize lies beneath - hidden in full view
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    1017m up in Katoomba, NSW
    Posts
    10,649

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KnifeGrinders View Post
    Streamlining sharpening protocols is one of the purposes.
    Knowing the right time to sharpen or replace blades is important for the industry to increase throughput while reducing downtime etc.

    Provided that blade geometry is the same, like cutting blades at this or that industrial application, it can be used for evaluating cutting performance as well, but not to compare varying blades.
    Knives used at the meat and poultry processing plants are all very standard, and can also be evaluated with some reservations.
    This is still nothing to do with woodwork. I suggest you join a meat forum.
    Regards, FenceFurniture

    COLT DRILLS GROUP BUY
    Jan-Feb 2019 Click to send me an email

  6. #35
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    Sydney NSW
    Posts
    53

    Default

    Those living in Adelaide - you can see the BESS sharpness tester in action during the Adelaide Knife Show on 4th & 5th Nov 2017.
    https://www.facebook.com/theadelaideknifeshow/

  7. #36
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    275

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KnifeGrinders View Post
    Streamlining sharpening protocols is one of the purposes.
    Knowing the right time to sharpen or replace blades is important for the industry to increase throughput while reducing downtime etc.

    Provided that blade geometry is the same, like cutting blades at this or that industrial application, it can be used for evaluating cutting performance as well, but not to compare varying blades.
    Knives used at the meat and poultry processing plants are all very standard, and can also be evaluated with some reservations.
    I understand that would apply in a production environment i.e. Blades on thicknesser needs replacing after 400 passes of pine at a furniture manufacturer (i see this as less relevant in a meat/poultury plant as there are more variables such as how hard the worker swings the blade, how many bones are cut through vs meat etc).

    What i'm trying to understand is how this would be relevant to a woodworker? I mean (and again, i'm only a beginner and haven't sharpened ANYTHING yet), but I'd assume with experience i'd know when a blade needs sharpening when its not performing anymore. But how would i be able to streamline a process for sharpening and reduce downtime when the work done in your average shed varies so greatly in terms of time spent in the shed, materials used (hardwood, softwood etc).

    I get the potential for an industrial setting, but this is a woodworking forum... so i guess i'm trying to understand where having one of these would benefit my situation or indeed other contributors on here who's situation i'd like to emulate in the future.. I can't see how starting my Saturday morning measuring a BESS on a chisel mean that i use maybe once a fortnight will be of benefit... i'd just start using the chisel and if it seems blunt i'd sharpen it... or if i'm doing something intricate or using expensive stock, give it a sharpen beforehand to mitigate the risk or damaging the piece...

    I'm not trying to come across as someone bagging a product you're passionate about, far from it. I merely trying to see how it applies to the market you're targeting or trying to educate on this forum...
    ​Coming Up With Complex Solutions to Non-Existent Problems Since 1985

  8. #37
    FenceFurniture's Avatar
    FenceFurniture is offline The prize lies beneath - hidden in full view
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    1017m up in Katoomba, NSW
    Posts
    10,649

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KnifeGrinders View Post
    Those living in Adelaide - you can see the BESS tester in action during the Adelaide Knife Show on 4th & 5th Nov 2017
    https://www.facebook.com/theadelaideknifeshow/
    This sort of posting was inappropriate in the other thread, but is outrageously so in this thread. It's just spam.

    Previously, Rob and I reported the posts and nothing was done. I left it at that.

    Now, and as a direct result of the post I have quoted I will be quite proactive in pursuing this.

    I think you might find that was one post too many.
    Regards, FenceFurniture

    COLT DRILLS GROUP BUY
    Jan-Feb 2019 Click to send me an email

  9. #38
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    back in Alberta for a while
    Age
    68
    Posts
    12,006

    Default

    Calm down Brett
    regards from Alberta, Canada

    ian

  10. #39
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    Sydney NSW
    Posts
    53

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FenceFurniture View Post
    This sort of posting was inappropriate in the other thread, but is outrageously so in this thread. It's just spam.

    Previously, Rob and I reported the posts and nothing was done. I left it at that.

    Now, and as a direct result of the post I have quoted I will be quite proactive in pursuing this.

    I think you might find that was one post too many.
    The show organizers chose to use this tester for their "The Sharpest Knife" contest - not me.

  11. #40
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    back in Alberta for a while
    Age
    68
    Posts
    12,006

    Default

    just to pick up on this one point
    Quote Originally Posted by KnifeGrinders View Post
    Streamlining sharpening protocols is one of the purposes.
    Knowing the right time to sharpen or replace blades is important for the industry to increase throughput while reducing downtime etc.
    Rob's testing of the Blue Spruce blade, showed little improvement in sharpness between 5000, 8000 and 10000 grit stones, but a noticeable improvement when the chisel was honed on the 12000 stone.

    My takeaway was that, for almost all wood working uses, the edge off a 5000 grit stone is sharp enough.

    But this was just one experiment that, like Brent Beach's earlier work, provides a performance reference that doesn't require other users to repeat.


    so a big thanks to Rob and Bob for doing the experimentation.
    I now can infer that adding a 8000 stone to my sharpening regime won't add much if at all unless I also add a stone at 12000 or finer as well.



    and thanks to KnifeGrinders for bringing the technique to lour attention.
    regards from Alberta, Canada

    ian

  12. #41
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    Sydney NSW
    Posts
    53

    Default

    @Dibbers - I sharpen very basic woodworking tools, and have limited experience.
    Hundreds if not thousands woodworkers all over the world use it for a reason, and I honestly think we are missing something important not knowing about this instrument.
    If you guys can benefit from my message, I am happy.
    Still happy, if you can not.

  13. #42
    FenceFurniture's Avatar
    FenceFurniture is offline The prize lies beneath - hidden in full view
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    1017m up in Katoomba, NSW
    Posts
    10,649

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KnifeGrinders View Post
    The show organizers chose to use this tester for their "The Sharpest Knife" contest - not me.
    That's just non-sensical gobbldigook that has nothing to do with what you have quoted. However, it is most certainly you that has spammed this thread.
    Regards, FenceFurniture

    COLT DRILLS GROUP BUY
    Jan-Feb 2019 Click to send me an email

  14. #43
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Central Coast, NSW
    Posts
    3,330

    Default

    Engineering 101: you can’t improve a system till you know how to measure it.

    I avoid the sharpening forum because one persons razor sharp is another persons blunt as, and without a way to objectively communicate sharpness it feels pretty pointless. Even one persons cuts the hairs on your arm no problem is another persons I can scrape the hairs off if I try hard enough..

    The BESS system is interesting and I applaud the clarification that goes on here. A while ago I started building my own sharpness tester. Wanting something that anyone anywhere could access and was consistent in manufacture I settled on industrial sewing thread. The only scales I had were kitchen scales not laboratory balances, and I was not able to get sufficient consistency., which may have been due to the balances or the limitations of thread cutting. So I thought about it and decided Reflex copy paper was consistent in Aus, so modified the system to use a deadfall of measured distance plus known weight (blade plus balance as lead shot) into multiple tightly wound layers of reflex paper on a ground of consistent hardness. The number of sheets cut gives you your sharpness. Edge angle may be relevant but it can be compensated for.

    I would love to see a universal, consistent, affordable measure of sharpness.
    Apologies for unnoticed autocomplete errors.

  15. #44
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    275

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Arron View Post
    Engineering 101: you can’t improve a system till you know how to measure it.

    ....

    I would love to see a universal, consistent, affordable measure of sharpness.
    I accept everything youve stated in your post, but KG mentioned earlier that this isnt a measure of sharpness as you need to take into account the metallurgy of the blade...

    And many woodworkers may use this, but unless they know the metallurgy of each blade, and record the BESS score for what they consider the optimal thickness of the edge, then from what i can gather they're not using it accurately.

    Now while i concede that a blade enthusiast may keep these types of records, your everyday woodworker wouldn't because theyd spend more time on a computer and at a set of scales then actually making anything.

    I'm an analyst, i work with data every day and know the importance and value of accurate data... but i cant see the ROI on the financial outlay or time spent tracking, measuring and fine honing of a blade using this system. If others can, thats great, but if everyone is expected to conduct their own tests and research on a product that is an "international standard" in sharpening, then i think more R&D needs to go into the product... why would i spend $250 on a system that i need to still research and test constantly to determine the sharpness of a blade when it isnt a measurement of sharpness in the first place? Its all a little confusing...

    Sent using Tapatalk
    ​Coming Up With Complex Solutions to Non-Existent Problems Since 1985

  16. #45
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Melbourne
    Age
    34
    Posts
    6,127

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KnifeGrinders View Post
    @Rob - BESS and similar sharpness testers cannot be used for evaluating cutting performance, edge holding ability etc as these depend on the blade geometry, angle and profile - for that testers like CATRA's are used that cut through a standard sheet of a test media, not a line.
    I'll just leave this here: No man is prophet in his own country?

    You yourself claim that geometry has no bearing on BESS scores. Which is it?

    Also, no one was asking for data behind HRC numbers, we were asking for data on the APPARATUS USED TO MEASURE IT. If you're going to sell something you gotta back up your claims with numbers, not BS like "my customers like it".

    Time to put up or shut up.

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Electrolysis experiments
    By BobL in forum METALWORK FORUM
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 25th March 2014, 12:07 AM
  2. Machinable Wax Experiments
    By RayG in forum METALWORK FORUM
    Replies: 64
    Last Post: 8th May 2012, 08:45 PM
  3. Experiments in lamination
    By corbs in forum WOODTURNING - PEN TURNING
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 19th January 2009, 05:33 PM
  4. Stanley 55 experiments
    By JDarvall in forum HAND TOOLS - UNPOWERED
    Replies: 77
    Last Post: 27th October 2007, 10:23 AM
  5. Experiments
    By javali in forum FINISHING
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 27th October 2006, 12:15 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •