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Thread: Experiments with the BESS system
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26th October 2017, 04:22 PM #31
if it can't determine cutting performance or edge holding performance, then what is the purpose of the test then? Not to be condecending, but wouldn't it be like saying This car has 46 Chazwazza headlights... but that isn't a measure of its brightness or the distance it illuminates... its just a measurement of how well the headlights were screwed in...
I mean, what is the purpose of testing sharpness if it has no bearing on cutting performance?Coming Up With Complex Solutions to Non-Existent Problems Since 1985
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26th October 2017 04:22 PM # ADSGoogle Adsense Advertisement
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26th October 2017, 04:41 PM #32
Streamlining sharpening protocols is one of the purposes.
Knowing the right time to sharpen or replace blades is important for the industry to increase throughput while reducing downtime etc.
Provided that blade geometry is the same, like cutting blades at this or that industrial application, it can be used for evaluating cutting performance as well, but not to compare varying blades.
Knives used at the meat and poultry processing plants are all very standard, and can also be evaluated with some reservations.
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26th October 2017, 04:45 PM #33
Uhhh, yeah, so what? I repeat:Furthermore, what does that have to do with woodwork???
So why are you trying to flog one to us all (in the other thread)? And yes, I would like your justification for that. If you are saying that we need one so we can make sure that we have sharpened a chisel to the usual standard, then I say BAHHH! A complete and extravagant waste of money.
The smartarse in me might say
Qui habet oculos. Notitia read anathema
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26th October 2017, 04:48 PM #34
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26th October 2017, 04:50 PM #35
Those living in Adelaide - you can see the BESS sharpness tester in action during the Adelaide Knife Show on 4th & 5th Nov 2017.
https://www.facebook.com/theadelaideknifeshow/
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26th October 2017, 04:50 PM #36
I understand that would apply in a production environment i.e. Blades on thicknesser needs replacing after 400 passes of pine at a furniture manufacturer (i see this as less relevant in a meat/poultury plant as there are more variables such as how hard the worker swings the blade, how many bones are cut through vs meat etc).
What i'm trying to understand is how this would be relevant to a woodworker? I mean (and again, i'm only a beginner and haven't sharpened ANYTHING yet), but I'd assume with experience i'd know when a blade needs sharpening when its not performing anymore. But how would i be able to streamline a process for sharpening and reduce downtime when the work done in your average shed varies so greatly in terms of time spent in the shed, materials used (hardwood, softwood etc).
I get the potential for an industrial setting, but this is a woodworking forum... so i guess i'm trying to understand where having one of these would benefit my situation or indeed other contributors on here who's situation i'd like to emulate in the future.. I can't see how starting my Saturday morning measuring a BESS on a chisel mean that i use maybe once a fortnight will be of benefit... i'd just start using the chisel and if it seems blunt i'd sharpen it... or if i'm doing something intricate or using expensive stock, give it a sharpen beforehand to mitigate the risk or damaging the piece...
I'm not trying to come across as someone bagging a product you're passionate about, far from it. I merely trying to see how it applies to the market you're targeting or trying to educate on this forum...Coming Up With Complex Solutions to Non-Existent Problems Since 1985
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26th October 2017, 05:02 PM #37
This sort of posting was inappropriate in the other thread, but is outrageously so in this thread. It's just spam.
Previously, Rob and I reported the posts and nothing was done. I left it at that.
Now, and as a direct result of the post I have quoted I will be quite proactive in pursuing this.
I think you might find that was one post too many.
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26th October 2017, 05:08 PM #38
Calm down Brett
regards from Alberta, Canada
ian
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26th October 2017, 05:16 PM #39
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26th October 2017, 05:18 PM #40
just to pick up on this one pointRob's testing of the Blue Spruce blade, showed little improvement in sharpness between 5000, 8000 and 10000 grit stones, but a noticeable improvement when the chisel was honed on the 12000 stone.
My takeaway was that, for almost all wood working uses, the edge off a 5000 grit stone is sharp enough.
But this was just one experiment that, like Brent Beach's earlier work, provides a performance reference that doesn't require other users to repeat.
so a big thanks to Rob and Bob for doing the experimentation.
I now can infer that adding a 8000 stone to my sharpening regime won't add much if at all unless I also add a stone at 12000 or finer as well.
and thanks to KnifeGrinders for bringing the technique to lour attention.regards from Alberta, Canada
ian
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26th October 2017, 05:24 PM #41
@Dibbers - I sharpen very basic woodworking tools, and have limited experience.
Hundreds if not thousands woodworkers all over the world use it for a reason, and I honestly think we are missing something important not knowing about this instrument.
If you guys can benefit from my message, I am happy.
Still happy, if you can not.
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26th October 2017, 05:24 PM #42
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26th October 2017, 05:33 PM #43GOLD MEMBER
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Engineering 101: you can’t improve a system till you know how to measure it.
I avoid the sharpening forum because one persons razor sharp is another persons blunt as, and without a way to objectively communicate sharpness it feels pretty pointless. Even one persons cuts the hairs on your arm no problem is another persons I can scrape the hairs off if I try hard enough..
The BESS system is interesting and I applaud the clarification that goes on here. A while ago I started building my own sharpness tester. Wanting something that anyone anywhere could access and was consistent in manufacture I settled on industrial sewing thread. The only scales I had were kitchen scales not laboratory balances, and I was not able to get sufficient consistency., which may have been due to the balances or the limitations of thread cutting. So I thought about it and decided Reflex copy paper was consistent in Aus, so modified the system to use a deadfall of measured distance plus known weight (blade plus balance as lead shot) into multiple tightly wound layers of reflex paper on a ground of consistent hardness. The number of sheets cut gives you your sharpness. Edge angle may be relevant but it can be compensated for.
I would love to see a universal, consistent, affordable measure of sharpness.Apologies for unnoticed autocomplete errors.
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26th October 2017, 06:10 PM #44
I accept everything youve stated in your post, but KG mentioned earlier that this isnt a measure of sharpness as you need to take into account the metallurgy of the blade...
And many woodworkers may use this, but unless they know the metallurgy of each blade, and record the BESS score for what they consider the optimal thickness of the edge, then from what i can gather they're not using it accurately.
Now while i concede that a blade enthusiast may keep these types of records, your everyday woodworker wouldn't because theyd spend more time on a computer and at a set of scales then actually making anything.
I'm an analyst, i work with data every day and know the importance and value of accurate data... but i cant see the ROI on the financial outlay or time spent tracking, measuring and fine honing of a blade using this system. If others can, thats great, but if everyone is expected to conduct their own tests and research on a product that is an "international standard" in sharpening, then i think more R&D needs to go into the product... why would i spend $250 on a system that i need to still research and test constantly to determine the sharpness of a blade when it isnt a measurement of sharpness in the first place? Its all a little confusing...
Sent using TapatalkComing Up With Complex Solutions to Non-Existent Problems Since 1985
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26th October 2017, 08:04 PM #45Taking a break
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I'll just leave this here: No man is prophet in his own country?
You yourself claim that geometry has no bearing on BESS scores. Which is it?
Also, no one was asking for data behind HRC numbers, we were asking for data on the APPARATUS USED TO MEASURE IT. If you're going to sell something you gotta back up your claims with numbers, not BS like "my customers like it".
Time to put up or shut up.
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