Thread: New Life for an Old Saw – Advanced Filing and Restoration

Sanding is followed by a green rouge buff against the direction of sanding to restore some shine.



Because I’ve shortened the saw the etch will be off center and unsightly to my eye, so I’ll blue the blade to hide it. But this is a good opportunity to demonstrate how to raise an etch like the faint one you see here.



To raise an etch, first avoid sanding it without using a sanding block when you clean the saw. Then degrease after buffing using mineral spirits followed by stronger trichloroethylene, and apply cold gun blue from a sporting goods store to the area of the etch. Follow the instructions on the bottle for curing and oiling.



After the blue cures, simple rubbing with a sanding block and 600-grit wet-or-dry paper lubed with WD-40 or honing oil will reveal any etch remaining. All these bluing solutions will rust if not oiled, some badly, so don’t omit it.



I then phosphate blue the entire blade, using the procedures I detail in a previous article on rust proofing tools. This type of blue applies a layer of rust-inhibiting phosphate to the steel, which also slightly fills the scratches and grinding marks present, making the blade a bit slipperier. You can read more about this at Brownells.com.



I secure the saw in the vise and lightly joint it to see what I have. While the joint and teeth look well-maintained to the naked eye, this saw has faults typical of both commercial filing, and filing for sharp points at the expense of the joint. One row of teeth is shorter than the other in several places where one side was filed past the flats on the teeth made by the joint, and the saw was filed straight across by machine using a file larger than optimum for these 11 tpi crosscut teeth. The gullets are perfectly uniform, but are too large, making the teeth too short.



Jointing insures all the teeth perform the same amount of work during cutting and involves more than just regulating tooth height. When the tooth line is wavy as shown above, the saw drags as teeth on the forward slope of a bump bite wood, and those teeth wear more quickly.



This tooth line isn’t perfect either close to the tip, but it’s more than adequate for efficient sawing. Keep in mind as we go that my goal isn’t perfect saws, it’s perfect sawing, and there are differences between them.

Continued…

Jointing is where you add or subtract “breast”, the amount of crown in the tooth line. Crown breasted saws are more difficult to joint, but rake sawdust more efficiently and crowns are always most pronounced on saws for green wood with gummy sawdust like the old one and two-man falling and bucking saws once used to harvest trees. Here I show a saw with a light breast on the left, a full breast in the center, and a straight or unbreasted saw on the right.



Before we look at filing, let’s look at files. Saw files are tapered triangular files with 60-degree corners, come in several confusing sizes, and always have “1st-cut, single cut” teeth as these cut slowly but produce a finer finish than coarser “2nd-cut” and multi-tooth files. Vintage Saws and file manufacturer websites like Simonds International have helpful guides for what size file is best for each pitch of saw, usually expressed in tpi or teeth per inch. But what if you don’t have the recommended file? Can you substitute?



Sure you can substitute. There are two factors guiding recommended file size. The first is you want the narrowest file possible so you can see the saw teeth better, yet you don’t want the file to use more than half its width when filing a tooth. That way you have three completely-sharp cutting surfaces on each file to use as each wears out.



The second factor is gullet width. The wider the file, the wider the flat at each corner, the wider the gullet it will produce, and the wider the gullet, the shorter the tooth. Of course there are limits. A knife edge file would minimize the gullet, producing a taller tooth, but the blade would also be prone to cracking at the gullet, and there are a couple hundred years of trial and error behind those file size recommendations that shouldn’t be ignored.

But you can certainly substitute files. New files of acceptable quality are expensive, and excellent values can often be had buying boxes of NOS taper files in off sizes and 2nd-cut files. You can use the coarser 2nd-cuts to shape the teeth and finish with your 1st-cut files. 3-inch Regular Taper, 1st-cut files can be currently had for pennies each, and substitute nicely for 3 and 4-dollar 5-inch Slim Tapers and 6-inch Double Slim Taper files. Just be aware that switching file sizes on the same saw can change the shape of the teeth due to even minor differences in gullet width, and the same can be true when switching manufacturers of the same size file.

Saws are filed in the stages detailed in several on-line articles on basic saw filing, like Pete Taran’s at the Vintage Saws website:

1) Jointing to even tooth height and straighten or fair the tooth line or breast.
2) Shaping the teeth to even the size of the flats made by the joint and set the rake angle.
3) Filing the “fleam” or cutting edge bevel angle until the flats disappear, creating sharp teeth of uniform height.



The major benefit of sharpening your own saws is you can tune them for how you use them. I usually work outdoors in damp, air dried wood and use hand saws where the mass of the work piece and the required angles and finish often preclude the use of power tools. Often 30 linear feet at a time too, driving study and experimentation in what makes the most efficient saw for my tasks. Accordingly, my saws are generally filed with the full crowned breasts and sloped gullets my boatbuilding family has used for generations.



Here are two identical 4 ½ tpi rip saws. Identical except the saw in the foreground clearly has taller teeth, and also a slight back bevel on the rear edge of each tooth. Seen at a different angle they look almost Japanese, and that’s probably not a coincidence. It was filed holding the file at a 45-degree angle to the blade, instead of straight across or 90 degrees to the blade like the saw in the background was filed. The geometry of a tri-cornered, 60-degree file is such that the greater the angle it is held at, the taller the tooth it produces. Brent Beach has a web page that examines sloped gullets in more detail, including their history and accurate engineering drawings that better demonstrate their geometry.

I find the taller teeth work more efficiently in the wood I use. They bite a bit deeper and rake damp sawdust a bit better, and the back bevel that sloped gullets produce on rip teeth score the wood on the back stroke for easier removal on the front stroke. You’ll have to try them and see if there’s any benefit with the woods you use. Whatever your preference, how to file sloped gullets isn’t described anywhere else and they are another tool to place in your kit if you ever feel you need them.



When changing a saw to sloped gullets, I combine the steps of shaping the teeth and filing the fleam angle into one step, and concentrate on “filing to the joint” instead of equalizing the size of the flats made by the joint during tooth shaping followed by counting file strokes to produce teeth if equal height. Accordingly, I don’t use carbon black or other aids to insure I don’t skip a tooth, as skipping a tooth doesn’t matter when concentrating on the joint. I also tend to file one side less than I would when filing conventional teeth, switching sides more often, and sometimes even rejointing if I make a mistake and file a tooth past its jointing flat. Notice I have my usual fleam angle scribed into the jaws of my saw vise. I prefer a shop-made wooden vise with long jaws because I like to file while standing and I can file an entire side without having to move the saw in the vise.



On the first passes I’m hogging off a relatively large amount of steel, and am concentrating more on getting out my gullets, establishing a uniform rake angle and not filing past the jointing flats than I am about the fleam angle. I’ll emphasize the fleam later on my final passes when filing is easier, and I may even change the rake angle later after testing the saw on wood.

Continued…

Keeping your angles constant when changing sides takes practice, and it’s also useful to move your work lights so you can clearly see the jointing flats.



Don’t continue filing if you can no longer clearly see those jointing flats. Take a break, move your lights or both. Also don’t hesitate to rejoint if you make a mistake and file past one. Moreover on saws like this one with short teeth and one entire row of even shorter teeth, you often have to compromise your initial jointing or not leave enough gullet on the short teeth to rest the file in, which is necessary for basic tooth spacing. You can see here that even after a full pass on each side, one row of teeth remains taller than the other, so rather than attempt too many tasks at once with the file, I rejoint and begin again.



I generally set the teeth before my final pass on each side of the saw so any damage caused to the cutting edges by the saw set is removed. Here you can see several small jointing flats remaining on the top of the teeth. When setting, I’m careful to place the plunger of the sawset at the same spot on each tooth, and when possible slightly back from the cutting edge bevel to minimize damage. And yes, although these Acme saws were designed to run without set, if a tad of set makes your saw more efficient on the wood you cut, then you can add a minimal amount without damage by using the lowest setting on your sawset.



Rip saws filed with sloped gullets are set oppositely from crosscut saws. Sloping the gullet puts a small bevel on the back of each tooth, creating a point, and the point must be bent outward to create the desired chisel point of a ripping tooth.



On my final pass to eliminate the remaining vestiges of jointing flats, I do so by leaning the file into the backs of the teeth rather than continue to file rakes and fleams. Uniform rake and fleam angles and their cutting edges are important, the backs of the teeth aren’t when your only objective is sharp points on the teeth.



I make some test cuts in relatively hard, air dried Douglas Fir at 12% moisture content to insure the saw cuts smoothly and accurately to a line before stoning off any wire and flash caused by filing. When filing sloped gullets for the first time, you may tend to file in more rake than the blade will take, so be prepared to put the saw back in the vise and make another pass on each side to reduce it.



The finished hybrid panel saw. Cost? Six dollars, one file, and a couple of evening hours.



My short saws don’t get used much, but can be handy. They also can be practically free, and it’s kinda fun when among the #120’s, #12, #16 and #88 shown it’s hard to tell which if any began life as a short panel saw.

Thanks Bob. I enjoy the amount of detail you give. Makes it clear.

Wish I new more about handsaws so I could give you a decent conversation on it.
I've just got an old tenon saw I sharpen and set. a stanley quick rip saw and ajapanese saw for fine work. But I can't sharpen those last two. The rest of my saw work is powered.

Being able to follow curved work like you have pictured catchs my eye. Thats definetly not something that I'd ever risk doing with a power tool.

...Being able to follow curved work like you have pictured catchs my eye. Thats definetly not something that I'd ever risk doing with a power tool.

It's a different trade, for sure. And probably the last one of mandatory professional hand saw use. Who else today really needs a large selection of rip saws?

G'day Bob,

What a beaut WIP in sharpening a saw

Now I've got a few Disstons and a tennon saw which has a Spitfire on it, all which the engraving is getting harder to see, so your thread has come at a very good time.

Oxpho-Blue, short of buying a large quantity, does it come in smaller containers? Ahh, cold gun blue, so maybe a poke in a local gunsmith could be the go. Oxpho-Blue and cold gun blue, are they the same thing or different? (trying to follow the pics and match the words)

Originally Posted by Waldo

G'day Bob,

What a beaut WIP in sharpening a saw

Now I've got a few Disstons and a tennon saw which has a Spitfire on it, all which the engraving is getting harder to see, so your thread has come at a very good time.

Oxpho-Blue, short of buying a large quantity, does it come in smaller containers? Ahh, cold gun blue, so maybe a poke in a local gunsmith could be the go. Oxpho-Blue and cold gun blue, are they the same thing or different? (trying to follow the pics and match the words)

Any cold gun blue will work for your purpose. Sporting Goods and gun shops have it. The Oxpho comes in small bottles and is better rust protection but spendy...and only available from Brownells...ask them if they have an Australian distributor.

G'day Bob,

Thanks for the reply, I'll follow it up.

Bob

Thanks for this. We're quite used to seeing expert tutorials from you, of course, but this one is really timely. I am going to be making a saw vice over the coming weekend and then attempting to sharpen and set a post-WWII Disston cross-cut.

You can be sure I'll re-read this thread several times!

Originally Posted by Waldo

Oxpho-Blue, short of buying a large quantity, does it come in smaller containers? Ahh, cold gun blue, so maybe a poke in a local gunsmith could be the go. Oxpho-Blue and cold gun blue, are they the same thing or different? (trying to follow the pics and match the words)

Waldo

This guy http://www.acmeengineering.com.au/gunsmithservices.html says he has an association with Brownells and can help with importing.

Perhaps a few of us could but a box of smaller bottles through him?

Cheers

Jeremy

G'day Jmk89,

Yeah, could be worth a go. Things are a bit tied up for me now, but I'd defineitely be interested in a shortwhile.

Originally Posted by jmk89

Waldo

This guy http://www.acmeengineering.com.au/gunsmithservices.html says he has an association with Brownells and can help with importing.

Perhaps a few of us could but a box of smaller bottles through him?

Cheers

Jeremy

Id be interested in a couple of bottles as I do some gun work as well.

Kev.

On Oxpho-blue, I will give this guy a call and see what he will do for us!

Bob also put this thread on the UKworkshop forum - there is an interesting addition to the info - Bob sets the teeth in reverse because this is a rip saw with sloped gullets - here is a link

Originally Posted by jmk89

On Oxpho-blue, I will give this guy a call and see what he will do for us!..

I sent him an e-mail. It explains why we don't find this stuff here:

"Unfortunately this is not available in Australia due to import restrictions.
A similar product call Colorsal is available from Fuchs.
This is a salt for hot caustic bluing and although simple to use can be dangerous if mishandled, read instructions carefully."

I will look into the Colorsal product and let you guys know.