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  1. #1
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    Default Mirror polish on diamond stones.

    Hey guys,
    currently I use a 400grit Atoma diamond plate, and 350, 1200, 6000 king waterstones. after fixing up a few hand planes recently, I have had to flatten the backs of a few rather poor irons. 20mins spent on the sole, frog, chipbreaker and other bits n pieces, hours spent on the damn blade! Using the waterstones to flatten the irons, i dish the the stones out rather rapidly, forcing me to flatten the stone again with diamond. its a messy, annoying and slow process. so i am considering moving to a full diamond setup.

    I can get a pretty good mirror polish off my #6000 king waterstone with little effort, #16000 would be better but i dont have one. Im wondering if I got a #6000 diamond plate, would I get the same results. possibly this is a case of "of course it will, 6000 is 6000 dummy!". but i do tend to get a nicer less scratched finish from my #350 waterstone than my #400 diamond.

    Japanese Diamond Whetstone - Naniwa #6000 | Japanese Tools Australia

    This stone seems to be the highest grit I can find on diamond stones, but I dont want to spend ~300bux on something, just to find out I would have been better just getting a 1200grit diamond and finishing on my messy 6000 waterstone.

    I will get a #140 and #1200 atoma, but i reckon i need something finer to finish. any suggestions will be muchly appreciated.

    Thanks

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  3. #2
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    Default

    I'm on full diamond (DMT DuoSharp in E.Coarse, Coarse, Fine and E.Fine) except for the final polish, which is on a 12000 Shapton Pro (one of these: Shapton pro cream #12000 : Tools from Japan, Japanese woodworking tools direct from Japan. ). The E.Fine diamond is certainly good enough for a sharp edge, but it's no mirror finish by any stretch of the imagination and I like shiny things so I got the Shapton. It's no messier than a diamond plate to use and, given that it's just for the final polish, it's unlikely you'll need to flatten it very often (if at all).

    I think it cost me $120 a few years ago, they can be had on ebay for about $100 posted out of Japan. If you want to go for the 30000 grit, you'll be looking at $500

    If you do get one, DO NOT leave it soaking in water. You will destroy it.

  4. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuffy View Post
    Hey guys,
    currently I use a 400grit Atoma diamond plate, and 350, 1200, 6000 king waterstones. after fixing up a few hand planes recently, I have had to flatten the backs of a few rather poor irons. 20mins spent on the sole, frog, chipbreaker and other bits n pieces, hours spent on the damn blade! Using the waterstones to flatten the irons, i dish the the stones out rather rapidly, forcing me to flatten the stone again with diamond. its a messy, annoying and slow process. so i am considering moving to a full diamond setup.

    I can get a pretty good mirror polish off my #6000 king waterstone with little effort, #16000 would be better but i dont have one. Im wondering if I got a #6000 diamond plate, would I get the same results. possibly this is a case of "of course it will, 6000 is 6000 dummy!". but i do tend to get a nicer less scratched finish from my #350 waterstone than my #400 diamond.

    Japanese Diamond Whetstone - Naniwa #6000 | Japanese Tools Australia

    This stone seems to be the highest grit I can find on diamond stones, but I dont want to spend ~300bux on something, just to find out I would have been better just getting a 1200grit diamond and finishing on my messy 6000 waterstone.

    I will get a #140 and #1200 atoma, but i reckon i need something finer to finish. any suggestions will be muchly appreciated.

    Thanks
    The finest diamond stone is probably a 12000 grit sintered diamond hone from iwood that you can get from toolsfromjapan (I think it's Iwood, but I could be wrong, it could be naniwa or someone else).

    You would be better off getting 1 micron or 1/2 micron diamonds, though, if you want something similar to a 16k shapton glassstone, and finding something to use them on. In the states, synthetic diamonds are about 25 cents a carat, and $25 worth would probably last you 20 years, if you find a suitable substrate of milled flat steel or cast (you can charge other surfaces with diamonds in the interim, though, like plastics, soft metals, hard wood).

    Diamonds cut a little less fine per micron size than other abrasives because of their aggressiveness, but they may not put a perfect mirror on something - instead, it looks like a mirror with tiny little scratches in it (just the way it turns out).

    The king 6k puts sort of a dull mirror finish on tools. The next step up from there (the 8k type stones, but not the takenoko 8k, which is just a 6k stone) will put a bright polish on things. That would include stones like the kityama 8k, king 8k, shapton 8k, etc.

    my favorite fine stone of the synthetics has been the shapton 12k pro, and it is not expensive if gotten straight from japan. I don't use synthetic finish stones any longer, and don't chase the polish, I don't think it's necessarily that important, but if the edges aren't as sharp as you'd like, that is certainly relevant.

    I have bought and used about everything, and would go to loose diamonds on a surface instead of a shapton 12k only if I had a bunch of high speed steel to sharpen.

  5. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by D.W. View Post
    The finest diamond stone is probably a 12000 grit sintered diamond hone from iwood that you can get from toolsfromjapan (I think it's Iwood, but I could be wrong, it could be naniwa or someone else).

    You would be better off getting 1 micron or 1/2 micron diamonds, though, if you want something similar to a 16k shapton glassstone, and finding something to use them on. In the states, synthetic diamonds are about 25 cents a carat, and $25 worth would probably last you 20 years, if you find a suitable substrate of milled flat steel or cast (you can charge other surfaces with diamonds in the interim, though, like plastics, soft metals, hard wood).

    Diamonds cut a little less fine per micron size than other abrasives because of their aggressiveness, but they may not put a perfect mirror on something - instead, it looks like a mirror with tiny little scratches in it (just the way it turns out).

    The king 6k puts sort of a dull mirror finish on tools. The next step up from there (the 8k type stones, but not the takenoko 8k, which is just a 6k stone) will put a bright polish on things. That would include stones like the kityama 8k, king 8k, shapton 8k, etc.

    my favorite fine stone of the synthetics has been the shapton 12k pro, and it is not expensive if gotten straight from japan. I don't use synthetic finish stones any longer, and don't chase the polish, I don't think it's necessarily that important, but if the edges aren't as sharp as you'd like, that is certainly relevant.

    I have bought and used about everything, and would go to loose diamonds on a surface instead of a shapton 12k only if I had a bunch of high speed steel to sharpen.
    I should've said "1/2 or 1 micron *loose* diamonds" above, but you probably figured that out. Loose are great because they are cheap, and a bag of loose diamonds will outlast any electroplate hone. The sintered hones at some point may become out of flat if they shed diamonds (if they didn't shed diamonds, there's no reason they'd need to be sintered with some depth).

  6. #5
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    "Polishing compounds" are all very fine abrasives. The steel surface looks shiney to the naked eye but it's a mess of scratches with a 10X magnifier.

    Scribble some green CrOx (may be laced with AlOx) on a length of box card and tape that down to any flat surface.
    Bunch of pull strokes and all my wood carving tools glitter in the light.
    Plus, I can have a clean new surface for honing when I like and for just pennies.
    The CrOx is probably 0.5 micron, the AlOx is maybe 0.25 micron.
    Lee Valley sells the stuff as a waxy bar, like a big, green, square crayon.

    A couple of carving friends use diamond paste. Works very well, you need little and it lasts a long time.

  7. #6
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    The formax-made compound that Lee Valley sells is about 70% aluminum oxide. Most green sticks are aluminum oxide primarily, because 1/2 micron chrome - pure - takes a lot longer to cut.

    Razor suppliers and pigment suppliers have graded powder and crayons, but they're a lot more expensive.

    And you can't tell a difference in tool sharpness, the only difference is the polish from them is absolutely bright and uniform without any visible scratches.

    Whereas, the formax compound does say that particles may be up to 6 microns in the LV bar (that's stray particles, the average are much smaller). If you look at the evidence left by the formax/LV compound, those stray larger particles make little visible scratches (but it's cosmetic, those sticks are great for practical use).

    Random green crayons that are low cost - they can have much larger average particle size, to the point that the chrome ox is really just coloring the bar. And it takes very little to color the bar, given that it's a powder pigment with very strong ability to turn everything green in very little bits.

    Same goes for iron oxide pigment.

  8. #7
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    I use 140/600 Atoma plates for material removal, then switch to diamond paste on cast iron blocks for 1200, 3000, 8000, 14000. Then finish off with the Shapton 12000. I know that sounds like I'm going backwards at the end, but it's just a few strokes to get the polish - the diamond paste leaves a cloudy finish. Probably also to do with what others have mentioned about the aggression of diamonds - going 14k and then back to 12k on the Shapton

    Very happy with the sharpness yielded and the set up and running cost is very low. ~$300 for a finishing stone is crackers IMO. Tubes of paste are <$20 each for 5 grams which will last for ages. The cast iron blocks can often be recharged by a drop of camellia oil without the addition of more paste (which is why the tube lasts for so long).

    One of our members is considering producing some CI blocks, but may have been sidetracked with other projects.

    Diamond Paste:
    Lapidary Equipment & Supplies Final Polishing Diamond Compounds & Extenders

    I think they have loose diamonds as well if you want to go that way, but paste seems to be more convenient than having grit to potentially get on the bench.
    Regards, FenceFurniture

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  9. #8
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    FF: have you ever looked at the "cloudy finish" with the diamond paste, maybe 10X magnifier? I'm interested to know if that's just a grossly scratched surface or something else.
    Because I use many different PacNW native style wood carving tools from adzes to crooked knives, my whole sharpening and honing process was about $10.00 to set up.
    The sharper the edge, the easier to cut soft wood. Kind of like paper thin slices of oranges.
    I can only suppose that you have many long, straight edges to keep in tune. I have a rarely used Stanley/Bailey #5, some spoke shaves and a draw knife.

  10. #9
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    Thanks guys for all the info. I learnt a thing or two

    I have placed an order with Stu at toolsfromjapan

    1 @ #140 atoma diamond plate
    1 @ #1200 diamond plate
    1 @ #12,000 shapton pro

    to go alongside my current #400 atoma diamond. This all should be good enough to keep the edges sharp without covering me from head to toe with whatever it is kingstones are made of (the #6000 smells like dog poo!)

    next time i order something from leevalley, ill get a green crayon and give it a whirl. doesn't seem right to place an order from overseas for a single $10 item

  11. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robson Valley View Post
    FF: have you ever looked at the "cloudy finish" with the diamond paste, maybe 10X magnifier? I'm interested to know if that's just a grossly scratched surface or something else.
    It's the same as the cloudy finish on the backs of the LV planes blades (PM V11 anyway). There's very little scratch pattern and I think the cloudiness comes from the paste medium. If it wasn't there I wouldn't bother with the Shapton 12K - that's only really for a cosmetic shine - I don't believe it's any sharper than finishing with the 14k paste.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robson Valley View Post
    I can only suppose that you have many long, straight edges to keep in tune. I have a rarely used Stanley/Bailey #5, some spoke shaves and a draw knife.
    Yes, no curves at all. About 32 straight edges.
    Regards, FenceFurniture

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  12. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuffy View Post

    to go alongside my current #400 atoma diamond. This all should be good enough to keep the edges sharp without covering me from head to toe with whatever it is kingstones are made of (the #6000 smells like dog poo!)

    next time i order something from leevalley, ill get a green crayon and give it a whirl. doesn't seem right to place an order from overseas for a single $10 item
    The 8k king stone smells like poop, too. No clue why their stones smell that way!

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