Thread: Sharpening H & S HSS M2 chisels

G'day Sam

There are others better qualified than I to comment on that, but certainly diamond paste will work. You may find that the 3M diamond sheets from Lee Valley are a more convenient proposition, but that may be a personal choice.

Can I add my Q - and ask the guru's opinions of japanese waterstones? Too soft for the M2? I imagine they will need frequent flattening?

Thanks,

Nick

I'll call in an eggspurt Nick, and see if we can get a reply. I suspect that you may be right about the Japanese stones. AFAIK, the Sigma Power Select II was developed more or less specifically for HSS, but again, others will know better than I.

Standby.

Yes, the Sigma PS II (and Sigma Power #400) are good for HSS. I've also had reasonable results with Shaptons (various) and a Bester #1000. You can look at Diamond stones too but the finest there is #1200 I think.

Thanks Ern. So given that these chisels are ready to rock "out of the box", i.e. flat, polished and sharp at delivery, would I be right in thinking that the diamond film would be a cheap entry level for honing, and perhaps a PS II may be required down the track (if rebevelling for instance)?

Thanks for the fast responses. What thoughts then on using my current DMT extra coarse diamond stone, and then say a 1200 and 6000 Sigma pair? And the cost? I have also concurrently emailed Stu from Tools from Japan for his opinion.

Thanks again,

Nick

EDIT - after reading the immediate above post by Brett with a very valid point - could I consider just getting a 6000 Sigma as a starting point?

Brett, yes.

Nick's edit, yes. Be sure to get the Select II. I'd be inclined to get a #1000 as well

The Sigma PS IIs cut quickly in relation to their dishing rate.

If you needed to change the bevel angle or take out some real nicks, then of course you'd need something coarse, like #240 or #400. But as it's HSS you can do that readily on a bench grinder with an Alox wheel. You can blue an edge without ruining the temper.

If you're laying in ceramic whetstones, of course you need something to flatten them. That could be a coarse diamond stone (and Stu sells an Atoma #400 that works well) or for stones coarser than #400, coarse SiC grains on plate glass. (That approach of course works well too with finer grains for finer stones).

HTH.

PS The diamond and other films are not good for freehand honing of the bevel, esp. at a skewed angle. It's easy to have a corner cut the film.

Other films inc. 3M micro-finishing abrasives that use Alox or Chrome Oxide; these are available in sheet form from The Sandpaper Man, or in a kit with nicely flat alloy plates from Woodpecker.

The film plus is that you don't need a flattening kit. If you're time poor or don't like the Zen of flattening stones, you just replace the film with fresh stuff.

I haven't taken HSS tools to the 3M stuff but have had good honing results with it with some hard HC steel and can't see why HSS would be any different.

M2 is designed to be wear resistant, since sharpening is basically wear they are hard to sharpen. I believe that while they hold an edge longer they have larger carbides and therefore don't get as sharp as O-1.
High speed steels are designed to not draw their temper when working at high speeds, this means that you can grind them until they are hot and they will not soften.
They may be just the ticket for the stuff you guys work down there, it will be interesting to hear the results.

HSS covers a range of alloys. Powder Particle metallurgy and cryogenics introduce new twists on old stories.

More info here

Originally Posted by nick_b00

Thanks for the fast responses. What thoughts then on using my current DMT extra coarse diamond stone, and then say a 1200 and 6000 Sigma pair? And the cost? I have also concurrently emailed Stu from Tools from Japan for his opinion.

Thanks again,

Nick

Hi Nick,

I hope you don't mind if I answer your email (for the most part) here, do you?

I don't know for certain how hard/tough the H&S chisels will be, but I do have some experience with some other chisels that are *ahem* comparable.

(Read that as "they scare me"...)

Not all 'standard' water/ceramic stones are compatible.

I know that pretty much every Shapton stone made (Pro, Glass and M series) are largely ineffective. They can be coaxed to work, and the H&S chisels may softer/less tough than the chisel I have and as such, the Shapton will be effective. But the chisel I have is made from PM-HSS, a patent Hitachi steel that's designed to be shock and wear resistant and it's frighteningly hard, and no Shapton I have (almost all of them) works well 'as is'. By raising a slurry with a diamond plate, the lower grit stones can be made to work, but above #4000 they don't.

Similarly, Naniwa Chosera and Superstones are 'ineffecitve'. The Chosera can be made to work with the slurry trick at #400 and #1000, the #5000 seems to be ok though. The Superstones are useless.

King? I've been told they can and do work, and I believe it. Kind of. But in reality, useless.

Bester seem to work well enough.

Most any stone that's white or dark grey seem to work well enough.

Sigma Power ceramic work well enough for the most part. Very curious actually, since they're not meant to work, but I can easily get a good edge from the 'ceramic' stones.

Suehiro Cerax work well enough. A little soft, but they put a good edge on the PM-HSS and do it fairly.

Sigma Power Select II are excellent. Really very good. The #1000 has a reputation for being too soft and dishing too fast. Once you put something really hard and tough on it, it becomes quite nice and slow to dish. If you've got one of these stones and it dishes quickly, then the steel you have isn't hard enough. Strange thing to see. The #3000 also good. #6000 is, I think, optimal for the final edge on plain HSS (M2). Good balance of ability with the steel, speed, etc, etc. The #10000 is, I think, overkill but it works well.

The stand outs here are the #400 and #1200. Both seem to be immune to any steel they touch, they just keep working and working well, and resist dishing stronger than any other stone I'm aware of. If you're serious about HSS, then at least the #1200 should be at the top of your short list, especially since it's also good with 'normal' steels.

I must also stress that trying to sharpen a full bevel on a hard, HSS tool is a fool's errand. It can be done, but there's no benefit in it and it takes too long. best to work a small edge bevel, and for myself all of the stones I've mentioned as being 'effective' or better will put a 1mm edge bevel on any width tool fairly easily.

For the nutzoid chisel I have, I generally use the #1200 to get the shape right then use the Select II #6000 with a dash of water to hone the edge. At this point, the chisel is sharp enough to trim hairs easily, but not sharp enough to push cut paper. It's certainly sharp enough to do most tasks except paring especially soft pine or cedar end grain, and it will hold this edge for a very, very long time in the most arduous conditions. Freshening up the edge is easy as well.

I'm finding that using the stones mostly dry with only enough water to make the loading from sharpening spread a little seems to give the best balance of speed and effectiveness, but a fully soaked #6000 will clean up scratched surfaces nicely.

Very much a case of experimentation to find out what works and what doesn't, and I encourage you to try what you've already got if you can to see if you can coax them into action.

Oh, and if anyone's interested there does exist a Select II #1000/6000 combo stone just made to give anyone the ability to sharpen HSS easily for minimal cost and without having to go 'whole hog' on a bunch of new stones. I've not got it listed yet, but that can be done easily enough. There's a large and small version, and the small should be about AU$50 or less I think, shipped. It's not a stone you would consider as the only stone to use, but as something that will get the tough stuff sharp.

Hope that helps, and don't be afraid. Getting these chisels sharp won't be something impossible, just something different.

Stu.

Hi Stu,

Great summary there. Thanks for that.

Cheers
Pops

Originally Posted by Schtoo

I don't know for certain how hard/tough the H&S chisels will be, but I do have some experience with some other chisels that are *ahem* comparable.

The plane blades are 61-63 Rc hardness, and are the same material, so I imagine the Chisels are about the same. I've sent an email to H&S to confirm, and will post in due course.

Originally Posted by Schtoo

(Read that as "they scare me"...)

Que?


Yes indeed, very informative Stu, as was the link that Ern provided.

Thanks for the useful info Stu.

Nick