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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob streeper View Post
    Makes me question a lot of the buzz around sharpening stuff.
    I'm quite sure a lot of it is buzz. My chisels feel perfectly sharp enough off an extra-fine DMT (9 micron/1200 mesh), but I like shiny so I go up to a 12000 grit Shapton anyway.

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  3. #47
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    I recall Paul Seller's video on 250/1000/10000+ grit. This was one of many times he was preaching to the choir. In this particular video, he demonstrated that he could plane pine with a Stanley #4 he sharpened to 250 grit. He laboured but did it.

    The aim was to send a message to his fan boys that one did not need sophisticated equipment. Actually, in this he is correct, however in this instance his follows took him literally! Look, no one should take this seriously. 250 grit may plane pine with the grain, but it will leave a poor surface. It will leave an awful result on hardwoods, especially Australian hardwoods. Just try and pare end grain pine with a chisel or block plane that was simply sharpened to 250 grit!

    Incidentally, anyone who finished on green compound is ending somewhere around 20K+.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Visit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on constructing handtools, handtool reviews, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.

  4. #48
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    What grit stone do you typically stop at Derek?
    Innovations are those useful things that, by dint of chance, manage to survive the stupidity and destructive tendencies inherent in human nature.

  5. #49
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    For the benefit of those who haven't seen the Paul Sellers video, here it is:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbAo4RpM7oM&t=135s

    If he's labouring he does a pretty good job of hiding it

  6. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tccp123 View Post
    I think the grit size is irrelevant in this example, that's just a furphy. What he's asking is if the chisel can take very fine shavings off end grain pine is it sharp enough. In other words if the tool can demonstrably do the job asked of it isn't it irrelevant what sharpening method produced that result?
    granted that if the tool is sharp enough to do it's job, how you got the edge that sharp is irrelevant apart from ease and time.

    However, I've watched the Paul Sellers video you linked to in post #49 wherein Sellers sings the praises of his India Stone and demonstrates what he can do with a plane sharpened to "250 grit", "1200 grit" and "15000 grit". I've also had a good look through the 2015 Norton Catalog.
    In Sellers example, "grit size" is not so much a furphy, more a highly misleading piece of information intended to lead viewers to draw a particular inference.

    Norton are in the business of making and selling abrasive media. In their catalog (on page 51), Norton recommend the following sequence of products for both wood chisels and plane irons
    Coarse / Medium sharpening -- Coarse Crystolon (Silicon oxide) oil stone or 1000 grit waterstone
    Fine stoning -- Fine India (aluminium oxide) oil stone or 4000 grit waterstone
    Finish honing -- Hard Translucent Arkansas oil stone or 8000 grit waterstone

    On page 52 of the catalog, Norton suggest that their Medium India stone is equivalent to about 240 grit (US CAMI standard) or 53 micron diamond particles, and their Fine India stone is equivalent to 320 grit (CAMI) or 35 micron diamond compound.

    I think it is entirely reasonable to take Norton at their word and accept that, in terms of the edge produced, a "250 grit" oil stone is equivalent to a 1000 grit waterstone.
    So, in the context of Seller's video, this means that his "250 grit" plane blade has been sharpened to the same degree as his "1200 grit" blade.

    It is only with the "15000 grit" blade that Sellers is introducing a edge that is noticeably keener.
    regards from Alberta, Canada

    ian

  7. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob streeper View Post
    Makes me question a lot of the buzz around sharpening stuff.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tccp123 View Post
    Now you've hit the nail squarely on the head!! Paul Sellers briefly touches on this when he distinguishes between those who sharpen so that they can cut wood and those who sharpen so that they can say "I have the sharpest blade"
    and at around 6:50 in the video, Sellers concedes that when his work got finer and finer, he needed a sharpness much greater than that achievable with an India Stone.


    I think the "buzz around sharpening" is that you can (should ?) stop refining an edge when the edge is sharp enough for the task at hand.

    Which begs the question -- what is the task at hand?
    In Derek's case it's Jarrah's interlocked grain which requires an edge much keener than that achievable on an India stone and suitable for a Scandinavian pine tool chest.
    regards from Alberta, Canada

    ian

  8. #52
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    This comment from the video says it all for me...

    "Like you Paul i'm a joiner. I served my time with great old tradesmen, shipyard men and men who could turn there hands to most things. We make case and sash windows, doors, cabinets, really anything to turn a buck. No one i know, that makes a living from wood, ponces about "super sharpening" a plane"

  9. #53
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    Tccp, I am not aware of how experienced you are with hand tools. I do recall you posting about a recent purchase of a 150/600 diamond stone, and finding this a revelation. Please do not see this as a personal attack - just a comment on what is likely our individual experiences. In my case, a 1000 is used to shape the edge of a blade, and I end up with a edge off green compound (20K+).

    Paul Sellers sharpens to the same level as I do, and does so always. He does not stop at 250 grit, or even 1200 grit. He will use a set of three diamond stones - 275/600/1200 grit - and then strops like fury on green compound until he has removed all the scratches from the 1200 grit. His "strop" is really another sharpening medium. I do not hear him - or see him - advocating that one should stop sharpening at 250 or even 1200 grit.

    Paul's sharpening regime is the source of much forum debate around the web. This is so since it is an entry skill to woodworking, and most of those who follow him are beginners. He makes his living from beginners, and encourages them to view him as the messiah. His sharpening system is aimed at them - diamond stones are easy to maintain. However, any reasonably experienced woodworker would view the system as poorly balanced, for example, the jump from 1200 to green compound will require more work than another using an intermediary grit (such as a 6000 stone). In my case, I would go 1000/6000/13000 (if using waterstones). The result is that I hone blades in less than half the time taken by Paul. Diamonds get the job done, but they are poorer than waterstones and oilstones in many ways.

    Regarding your comment about "the joiner" (above): I am sure that Ian is more knowledgeable about oilstones than I, and he or others can say more, but "the great old tradesmen" were more likely to use oilstones, and therefore it is relevant to look at the real grit level they were working at. What some might imagine to be 400 grit (or there abouts) off an oilstone might in reality be closer to 8000 grit, depending on the stone used. Further it is all about how one uses a stone, given a friable stone: I can use a 1000 King waterstone and end up with an edge similar one off an 8000 grit (because the grit breaks down, and the slurry acts like a finer stone).

    In my own experience, there is no way I would wish to work with a blade that is in the range you prescribe. Neither would Paul Sellers. This would be disadvantageous on so many levels.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Visit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on constructing handtools, handtool reviews, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.

  10. #54
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    I find it disturbing that discussions of sharpening are so likely to become contentious. I think this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcis...ll_differences) may have something to do with it. Is it possible to ask questions of a technical nature without creating a squabble? Thanks.
    Innovations are those useful things that, by dint of chance, manage to survive the stupidity and destructive tendencies inherent in human nature.

  11. #55
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    LOL, when someone begins a message with "Please do not see this as a personal attack" it's very similar to someone beginning with "with all due respect" .

    In answer to your first question about my experience with hand tools, it depends on the tool. Hammers? Yes lots of experience. Planes? Not so much, and in fact I began my original post here with "I've recently been down this path..." which I thought ideally qualified me to answer the OP's original questions (which in the end I didn't do anyway). I ended the post by saying in my experience 1500 grit was enough to satisfy my needs. This generated the question about how far one should go in the sharpening process.

    During the ensuing debate I quoted Paul Sellers because after watching many, many woodworking videos from many people I was impressed by his laid back style, his modesty and humility and his overall commonsense. This particular video made the point that you could (not should or must) get away with sharpening to 250 grit (and let's not rekindle the argument about Norton selling 1000 grit stones masquerading as 250 grit). But he states in the video he sharpens to a finer finish to help reduce drag. And I've already stated I sharpen to 1500 grit. If you have no wish to work with a blade that's in that range then it has nothing to do with me. That's your opinion and your choice.

    As an aside I buy, refurbish and sell a lot of planes. I don't think I've ever bought one that came with a blade that could be used so I had to learn how to sharpen because I want any plane I sell to work better out of the packaging than a new plane. I get lots of good feedback about both the appearance and performance of the planes I sell. The reason I'm telling you this is that I think 90% of planes that are sold are used till the blade becomes so blunt that the plane becomes unusable. It's then put on a shelf till it becomes rusty and is eventually sold or discarded. I think the best thing we can do for new woodworkers is to teach them to sharpen to at least a stage where the plane can be used. Going beyond that is a nice to have but not essential. Once they've mastered the basics they can make that decision themselves.

    As another aside
    I recently came into possession of my deceased father's plane. I remember as a child (I'm now 67) being asked to sharpen the blade on the concrete steps at the back of the house. This was in the mid '50s. So you can imagine my delight when I discovered the plane (bog standard Stanley No.4) was in excellent condition with Japanning 98%. The depth adjustment knob has the plastic surround which I think was as a result of a shortage of brass at the end of the war but otherwise look like any other Stanley (notwithstanding the badly sharpened blade) .

    Regards,
    Tony


  12. #56
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    Hi Tony

    Many thanks for adding your name. I did not know this before.

    I really meant it when I said that I do not wish this to come across as personal. The problem is that sharpening threads tend to do so, since everyone sharpens and has - and is entitled to - an opinion. To some extend Rob (above) is correct: the measured differences between 30 and 3 and 0.3 microns may be viewed as small ... however, these can make a significant difference in the appropriate context.

    I have a low interest in sharpening - as mentioned earlier, it is an entry-level skill. I have enough interest to sharpen my blades to (my) workable level and want to know the most efficient method (since I am inherently lazy in this regard), and I have had enough experience to be knowledgeable to offer reliable commentary.

    You and I are the same age (actually, I turned 68 yesterday ), and we have probably been using tools for the same number of years. On the other hand, I have been using handtools for a few decades now. I am aware that I was not aware when I thought I was aware all those years ago, and am aware that there is much of which I am not aware, and hopefully will become aware as the years pass . I suspect that you will increasingly become aware (!) of this yourself in regard to restoring Stanley planes. (I am very envious that you own a plane of your father's - my father was a boy scout and I grew up with knives, axes and string/lashing/knots - but no woodworking tools to hand down).

    I am also careful to acknowledge that 1000 (or 1500) grit does not work in my context. Context, as you note, is all important.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Visit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on constructing handtools, handtool reviews, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.

  13. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob streeper View Post
    I find it disturbing that discussions of sharpening are so likely to become contentious. I think this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcis...ll_differences) may have something to do with it. Is it possible to ask questions of a technical nature without creating a squabble?
    I'll try.

    In respect to a plane iron or chisel, "sharp" can really only be defined in respect to the task at hand. As Paul Sellers says in the video linked to in post #49, a blade can be too sharp if the surface it leaves requires "roughing" before the intended finish will adhere.

    The only sharpening media I haven't tried at some stage are loose diamonds and loose silicon carbide.

    My observations, supplemented by reading and conversations with blade makers are:
    1. some sharpening media and some steels should remain separate. I have a number of blades made from A2 and M2 (might be M3) steel. I prefer diamond plates and water stones when sharpening these steels. (I bought my first PMV11 blade yesterday so have zero experience with this specialist steel.)

    2. Oil stones are great with the carbon and/or vanadium steel found in card scrapers, Berg, Sandvik and Marples chisels and older Stanley/ Record planes.

    3. a Norton Fine India stone will put a more than acceptable edge on "ordinary" steel. Apart from one LN blade, I have no way of telling which if any of my "ordinary steel" blades is O1, and I don't particularly care. I can get them sharp enough for the tasks I have so far asked of them and that's good enough for me.

    4. As soon as you step away from a single product type / system, grit numbers (as a comparable grading system) become rubbery. Not only do grading systems vary, issues such as the type of abrasive, the bond holding the abrasive particles together and how the stone was made become as relevant, and in some cases more relevant, than the size of particles used to make the stone. If you wish to explore this further look up the grit size for Spyderco stones which cut much much finer than the nominal grit size would suggest is possible.

    5. stepping away from abrasives, edge sharpness also depends on how the tool was made. Paul Williams, in particular, was adamant that matching the direction a sheet of steel had been rolled was critical to producing a keen edge. Get the grain orientation misaligned with the cutting edge and a blade was impossible to get really sharp.

    6. cutting edge geometry viz-a-viz the cutting task is critical to how sharp an edge appears to be. A edge may cut poorly, not because the edge is blunt, but because the cutting geometry is not optimal. Conversely, a "blunt" blade may still cut if the geometry can be got to match the task. I'm currently working on a blade that earlier in the week was cutting well, but when I took it out of the plane to sharpen the edge is so blunt it won't cut skin.
    regards from Alberta, Canada

    ian

  14. #58
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    Just an update.

    I ended up with 1000/6000 cerax stone from japanese tools australia. its pretty sharp able make very fine shavings. However I noticed that the low angle jack had trouble on end grain - the blade would just rub over the surface. The #4 was able to take shavings off endgrain. Im talking about hardwood.

    Therefore, I assume either my technique sucked or I'm not going fine enough. I used a veritas honing guide which is probably idiot proof. Though I may be that idiot. (actually tightening the blade to the guide can be technique sensitive)

    So my question is - should I get a finer stone or get some green compound? If I should get another stone I think I want to get what FF is always suggesting - a metal plate and some diamond paste. If green compound, can the green Josco bar from bunnings work? I notice that most green compound is chrome oxide and dark green, whereas this josco stuff is light green and doesnt actually say chrome oxide

  15. #59
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    Perhaps someone in Melbourne who some experience in sharpening might be able to advise you on the results you have obtained and give some pointers on using the stones. As has been said above it is an elusive goal when trying to get there with no criteria judge how you are going, that is the important bit as you have nothing to judge against. I myself have gone through at least four steps of increased awareness of how sharp a blade can be and each step was eye opening compared to what I had previously thought was sharp. I am about to try a new technique of silicone carbide on cast iron just to see what happens as some reports say it is an excellent way of going to the next level, we shall see. The experiment is appealing because it is costing nothing and I am always curious.
    CHRIS

  16. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyu View Post
    Just an update.

    I ended up with 1000/6000 cerax stone from japanese tools australia. its pretty sharp able make very fine shavings. However I noticed that the low angle jack had trouble on end grain - the blade would just rub over the surface. The #4 was able to take shavings off endgrain. Im talking about hardwood.

    Therefore, I assume either my technique sucked or I'm not going fine enough. I used a veritas honing guide which is probably idiot proof. Though I may be that idiot. (actually tightening the blade to the guide can be technique sensitive)

    So my question is - should I get a finer stone or get some green compound? If I should get another stone I think I want to get what FF is always suggesting - a metal plate and some diamond paste. If green compound, can the green Josco bar from bunnings work? I notice that most green compound is chrome oxide and dark green, whereas this josco stuff is light green and doesnt actually say chrome oxide
    I wonder what your bevel angle is.

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