Thread: How soon do your waterstones go out of flat?

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

CAVEAT: I am not saying that waterstones won't give a good edge - they do - just that for major work they can't be trusted to deliver flatness without constant flattening.

I use waterstones to polish an established bevel, not for major reconstruction of a chisel or plane iron bevel. Waterstones are excellent for maintaining a plane iron or chisel once the bevel has been established by grinding.

I also use an angle jig for consistency as it does minimise the amount of metal removed with each sharpening, but the trick is to ensure that you spread the wear over the whole surface of the stone as evenly as possible.

FF, you acknowledge that a bench grinder would have been ideal but you dont have one. I am wondering why you dont have a bench grinder but you have both diamond plates and waterstones, which to the best of my understanding do much the same thing as each other.

Its like saying your block plane is no good because you tried to use it as a scrub plane and it didnt work.

Cheers

Doug

For a start it should not take three hundred strokes the sharpen anything, the way to keep the stone flat is to move over the entire stone when using it this will flatten the stone in use, the water stone I have has not needed flattening for at least three years

Originally Posted by doug3030

I am wondering why you dont have a bench grinder but you have both diamond plates and waterstones, which to the best of my understanding do much the same thing as each other.

Simply no space for a grinder Doug, until I do the extension (I know they take up bugger all, but I've got even less than that). Got the plates after the stones because they are guaranteed to stay flat without constant maintenance, and there's bugger all mess with plates.

Originally Posted by China

For a start it should not take three hundred strokes the sharpen anything

No of course not, but re-beveling a severely deformed chisel takes as many strokes as it takes. (or a grinder which is not available to me atm). These Chisels (particularly the 1" and 1¼") had a plethora of curves in the bevels to be taken out, and once that was done it revealed just how much out of square the bevels were. Once they were squared up it revealed just how many chips were left behind to be ground out. They really were in a shocking state, but we get that from time to time. I repeat that a grinder would be the tool of choice, as this job was just too much work for stones, but when you only have stones, and the guy has to show up for his first day on a new job next Monday (with sharp chisels as a prerequisite) , then one has to suck it up and use what is available.

My main thrust here is that for flattening of any considerable size job waterstones can't give guaranteed flatness without significant maintenance for themselves as well.

Originally Posted by China

the way to keep the stone flat is to move over the entire stone when using it this will flatten the stone in use

Yes, that is my normal procedure whether it be stone, plate or paste on block. Spread the wear evenly.

Hi Brett, just as a general comment, I bought a plane from Terry Gordon at one of the WW shows and he sharpened the blade for me so I got to see how a real expert does it. The thing I noticed was that he had a thick piece of glass with sandpaper stuck on, and he constantly flattened the waterstone as he sharpened. So a bit of sharpening, then a rub with the glass plate, and that was with a relatively wide plane blade which has much less dishing effect than a chisel.

Peter

I'm on the same page fence furniture!

I really like water stones, as a system they do a great job of sharpening. For the vast, vast majority of sharpening I don't feel it's any better than any other system.

I think their is a bit of mysticism that surrounds them much like ' Damascus blades are the best of the best' or it must be laminated steel.

I have only ever used them as a finishing or light touch up system when I'm getting a little fanatical. But that's just how I use them.

It's a good system (I'm not bagging it at all), but I feel where it stands out from the rest is in show pieces and historical swords. It's a very complex system to master. From memory sword polishing and sharpening by a master in Hawaii is in the range of $300-$500 USD and up per inch.
I don't think even the most fanatical WW here in OZ would bother taking it to that extreme.

Actually, sword polishing is an unfair example....their is a tremendous amount of study involved with the history and style of each maker, years of watching a master so you do not ruin a priceless piece etc... It's not just about making it shiny and sharp.

In the end it's about making it adequately sharp for the task. Diamond, whetstones, pastes, abrasive papers, power strops etc etc all can get you there.

RV touts the saying, 'pick a system and learn it' I'm with him on that one! They all work.

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

My main thrust here is that for flattening of any considerable size job waterstones can't give guaranteed flatness without significant maintenance for themselves as well.

I do not think anyone is going to argue against that, Brett. I do not recall anyone saying that they would.

But can you tell us why, when you suspected that the waterstones would not remain flat but you were sure that your diamond plates would, that you chose to use the waterstones for the rough work before reverting back to the diamond plates? Were the waterstones a coarser grit?

Doug

Originally Posted by doug3030

But can you tell us why, when you suspected that the waterstones would not remain flat but you were sure that your diamond plates would, that you chose to use the waterstones for the rough work before reverting back to the diamond plates? Were the waterstones a coarser grit?

Yes, it was a 110 grit stone Doug, and a particularly nasty bevel. I also wanted to test the theory a bit more accurately.

Originally Posted by 3 toed sloth

Hi Brett, just as a general comment, I bought a plane from Terry Gordon at one of the WW shows and he sharpened the blade for me so I got to see how a real expert does it. The thing I noticed was that he had a thick piece of glass with sandpaper stuck on, and he constantly flattened the waterstone as he sharpened. So a bit of sharpening, then a rub with the glass plate, and that was with a relatively wide plane blade which has much less dishing effect than a chisel.

Peter

Cheers Peter. Yes, that is my main gripe with waterstones - constant maintenance, constant mess (no sink or similar in my shed).

Ben: "pick a system and learn it". Yes, couldn't agree more. The system I picked was Diamond plates for 220 & 600, and then diamond paste on Cast Iron blocks for 1200, 3000, 8000, 14000. Works wonderfully well, quick and very limited mess. No stone soaking, can be put back into the drawer immediately if required. And the great thing is - CHEAP AS CHIPS. A 5ml syringe of paste is about $13 or something and lasts for years. CI blocks were free, and using one grit per face means four grits on two blocks. Do the first grit, flip the block, do the second grit, move to the next block.

There is nil mess on the bench (nil spillage) but there is black grease to wipe off the blades and fingers (white spirits). Don't think I've re-flattened the blocks since original but of course they will eventually need it. As long as the bevels keep matching from grit to grit then it's a pretty safe bet that they are all still flat.

The paste doesn't give a bright steel finish - it's cloudy (but i can live with that) but I can get them bright by finishing on a 12000 stone for just a few strokes (6-10).

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Yes, it was a 110 grit stone Doug, and a particularly nasty bevel. I also wanted to test the theory a bit more accurately.

My coarsest waterstone is 700 grit. I use it the first time I sharpen a chisel or plane iron once I have taken it as far as I can with other means such as the grinder you dont have room for, Brett. After that I rarely need anything coarser than 1200 grit unless something untoward happens and then its usually grinder, then 700 grit again anyway.

I also use the 700 grit waterstone a lot on kitchen knives. I sharpen kitchen knives for a lot of our friends and the fast removal of material on the 700 stone is very useful the way some of the people treat their knives.

Another use I have found occasionally for the 700 grit waterstone is to clean up a cast iron tabletop. for one thing it will show you very quickly where the table is uneven, even if just by a little bit, but it cleans it up well and takes a bit off the high spots at the same time. You must dry it quickly and put on plenty of WD-40 or similar very quickly afterwards though. I suppose I could go on and polish it further with the 1200 and 6000 stones but I have never seen the need.

Cheers

Doug

Hi Brett

I have Shapton and Sigma. They are among the harder ceramic stones, but still require flattening. I do not wait as long as you, and generally touch up between blades. Even so, there is not much to do as I try and use the surface evenly (I freehand). The diamond stone used to flatten is really more about cleaning the surface.

Even so, these modern "waterstones" do go out of flat faster than I would like. Recently I switched to Spyderco ceramic stones, which are really hard. Hard! They needed a diamond stone to flatten them a smidge beforehand, and that took 15 minutes each (just to illustrate how hard they are). They are reputed to be like oilstones in durability.

I learned a lesson from these stones. Basically, I got lazy and imagined that they would stay flat regardless. As a result I used the centre of the stones more than the whole stone, and when I checked at the end of a month I found that they had hollowed slightly. So, back to using the whole stone.

The type of restoration work you are doing requires a grinder. A CBN wheel would make very short work of restoring the bevels. See: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Woodwor...ningSetUp.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by doug3030

Another use I have found occasionally for the 700 grit waterstone is to clean up a cast iron tabletop.

Good idea!

Originally Posted by derekcohen

I do not wait as long as you, and generally touch up between blades.

For blade touchups or stone flattening? I think you mean stone flattening, and I guess that is my whole point Derek - waterstones are big messy maintenance, but i take your point that the Spyderco are much less prone to dishing. As I recall they are pretty exxy, and only available from the States. Think they also produce a diamond plate for flattening their stones too don't they?

Originally Posted by derekcohen

The type of restoration work you are doing requires a grinder. A CBN wheel would make very short work of restoring the bevels.

Yep, sure does. Can't wait for the shed extension to happen - a grinder + CBN will be first on the list. Having the hollow grind will mean I can start learning freehand sharpening (on the thicker blades at least) which is much much quicker than setting up the Veritas jig just for a quick touch up.

I should probably reiterate that I'm not bagging stones here - just pointing out that for major work they too will require major and frequent work, and as some have said are not the medium of choice for major work.

Fence furniture, any chance you could post up some pics of your cast iron sharpening system? I would love a bit more information on it.

I always assumed that the cast iron plates would wear as quickly as what you were sharpening... And flattening them would be a nightmare... I must have this wrong.

I have been told using diamond pastes with cast iron plates is the bees knees (and cheaper) way of sharpening up to the finest grits.

Where did you come across the plates for free?
Thanks mate
Ben.