Thread: First Western Natural StoneI

I'd bet someone else's nickel that it's a cretan. if they've never seen oil, they start off looking kind of stone-dusty on the surface, or whitish gray. When they're introduced to oil, the solid parts are dark.

Your grit estimate is just about right. They are a semi-friable novaculite stone, as in like a western hard arkansas without the hard part being totally try.

I don't believe that synthetic finishing stones really stuck ever in the era of fine woodworking. I've seen synthetics or semi synthetics (composition of natural abrasive like rhodolite) bound in a manufactured stone - frictionite is a good example of that, but those stones were typically marketed if they were big to razor manufacturing or something of the like.

Carborundum fine stones and even razor hones were marketed early, and they weren't cheap, but they are terrible at making a fine edge and the razor stones were an absolute dud. the finer bench stones will cut most anything, but leave grit all over your fingers, frustrating you if it gets on legitimately fine hones.

The older texts usually specify a turkish oilstone. Anything more modern text wise has sharpening advise after hand work was in the death throes. The turkish oilstone is a finer version of that and extremely hard to find, and who knows if what's out there is the best of what turkish oilstones were.

All that said, what you have is a good stone, it's practical, and I'd use it if i were you. If you need finer, follow it up with inexpensive buffing bar on MDF or very hard leather (add a drop of oil) or buy loose closely graded very fine abrasive. the result will be better than you'd get from a fine synthetic waterstone.

It is a nice stone, I purchased it out of curiosity regarding Western whetstones.

I am developing a stone problem.

I have over a dozen stones, synthetic and natural.

I will continue to keep an eye out for more in the future.

Originally Posted by thumbsucker

It is a nice stone, I purchased it out of curiosity regarding Western tones.

I am developing a stone problem.

I have over a dozen stones, synthetic and natural.

I will continue to keep an eye out for more in the future.

there are worse problems!

I also have a stone problem, but I don't know how many I have either. it could be three digits. And of course one of them is a cretan like that one. there are light and dark sold by the retailer of that stone - they are still being sold. The darker one is slightly finer. I have the lighter of the two. It's a very practical stone.

Originally Posted by D.W.

there are worse problems!

I also have a stone problem, but I don't know how many I have either. it could be three digits. And of course one of them is a cretan like that one. there are light and dark sold by the retailer of that stone - they are still being sold. The darker one is slightly finer. I have the lighter of the two. It's a very practical stone.

I'd like to have a stone problem, but I get marijuana psychosis, and it's frowned upon by the man...

Originally Posted by D.W.

I'd bet someone else's nickel that it's a Cretan.

Some background on Turkey/Turkish/Cretan stones....

The Turkish Oilstone Matter | Kitchen Knife Forums

I was developing a stone problem, but managed to pull myself out of that hole before it swallowed me. I didn't notice anything with the synthetics, but not far into the naturals I started to feel the pull and stopped myself just in time!

My name is Neil and I'm a recovering stone addict...

I may have the same "problem". I recently bought a Norton Pike Queer Creek stone, my 1st large natural stone. Haven't tried it yet (forthcoming Christmas present) but believe it is of a mid range coarseness. My saving grace is a reluctance to part with large sums of money!!

Originally Posted by Mountain Ash

I may have the same "problem". I recently bought a Norton Pike Queer Creek stone, my 1st large natural stone. Haven't tried it yet (forthcoming Christmas present) but believe it is of a mid range coarseness. My saving grace is a reluctance to part with large sums of money!!

it's a second line stone. The opinion of them varies based on what people expect - they're slow and have a ceiling on fineness, so if you were exposed to washitas and norton's finest, you'd say "ahh, I see why this is second line", but if you haven't got a lot of that, they otherwise rely on the same skill. Oil or water is fine with them - though I can't remember if they have any porosity at all. If they don't, then you can literally just remove the oil with a solvent on something like an arkansas stone and use soapy water until the bubbles persist and you're back to water use.

The silica stones, whether they are coarse or queer creek, are all missing a little something that happens when pressure and heat and time press silicon dioxide into novaculite. I have no idea what it is but some ho-hum novaculite softs exhibit the same thing - though those type of soft stones are usually aggressive to make up for it.

What I'm talking about on the washita and arkansas stones is a huge range of effects based on how much pressure is applied when honing, and somewhat dependent on steel hardness. to focus on the very tip of a tool with light pressure when finishing can yield surprising results. With the sandstone types and the lower grade soft arks, you just cannot get the same fineness - the range is less.

Too, all of the stones have abrasive about the hardness of hardened steel in a fine chisel. if you get above that (like upper hardness japanese chisels), you end up with a stone that mostly burnishes - which can be useful for fine edges, but too slow to do ordinary sharpening. If you get below it, like pen knife blades, even the finest arkansas stones will make for a challenge in getting a fine edge without a burr. Pen knife blades were often low to mid 50s in hardness. Always wondered about that, but I understand it now - nothing terminates the value of a knife like the blade breaking off and a 30 year old knife with great service and a blade that breaks off is still "a piece of crap that broke on me".

Originally Posted by NeilS

Some background on Turkey/Turkish/Cretan stones....

The Turkish Oilstone Matter | Kitchen Knife Forums

I was developing a stone problem, but managed to pull myself out of that hole before it swallowed me. I didn't notice anything with the synthetics, but not far into the naturals I started to feel the pull and stopped myself just in time!

My name is Neil and I'm a recovering stone addict...

Interesting page - though I think there are more cretans than turkish stones there. One of the stones pictured might be an older turkish stone. There are older cretans, too, though no clue if they are any better than the new ones. I kind of doubt it. All of the types in that group can be friable, especially with a laminated tool - the soft metal will grab particles, which is true with japanese stones - some of the best stones will shed particles at a reasonable rate while the same won't happen with an all-steel tool.

I stone that sheds a little bit of natural grit will cut steel harder than the particles themselves.

here is a turkish stone - note the areas where it looks like leaves or leafing? what's the right term - are light in color and look like the stone has been cracked.

It's strange that google doesn't bring more of these as I've seen beautiful black versions of these with elaborate arrays of mock fractures in them and only one has been labeled. It was 1.5x7 inches and I think sold for about $260. If it would've been 2x8, I'd have it. i would guess it was from the mid 1800s, but don't remember everything the label showed. Someone smart about archived picture searching may be able to find it - I'd guess 8 years ago?

I think I'm cured of the disease for now, but don't want to pull my stones out to count them.

My turkish stone is irregularly shaped to some extent, more like 2x1/8" x7, it's more brown than black, presumably a lower grade, and it is custom fitted in a base that was contoured to match it. Warren Mickley was here at one point and I was talking about turkish stones, he assumed I didn't have one and mentioned that he'd read they could be irregular if old enough and boxed in a way that supports the irregular shape. I pulled mine out and his eyes got big!

It snuck through ebay for about $60 quite a long time ago now. they are often carefully fitted to boxes because they're fragile and I think even holtzapffel glows about how well they work, especially on harder steels, and then warns that mishandling can result in breakage.

Fortunately, the cretans are pretty stout. My stone is affixed in its base and though I'd love to see the underside of it, I don't want to risk breaking it taking it out. I suspect, too, that the brown color is substandard because it's finer than a cretan, but it's not as fine as a good translucent stone.

Fair chance I'm wrong here, or at least there are varying ideas of what a turkish stone is.

nicholson complained in the early 1800s that the rarity of the true turkish stones was making it so that they're unaffordable.

But, holtzapffel referred to the stones being lamellar or schistose in appearance, but being available in both lighter and darker stones, which sounds more like the cretans.

It's possible but too speculative to make any claims, that the stones nicholson liked were on the way out and the cretans had taken on the market. There is no mention in holtzappfel in the main paragraph about rarity.

in a world where we have buffing bars and MDF, differences between whats out there now and what was are meaningless - no natural stone is as fine as the finest (cheap) buffing bars.

Originally Posted by D.W.

it's a second line stone. The opinion of them varies based on what people expect - they're slow and have a ceiling on fineness, so if you were exposed to washitas and norton's finest, you'd say "ahh, I see why this is second line", but if you haven't got a lot of that, they otherwise rely on the same skill. Oil or water is fine with them - though I can't remember if they have any porosity at all. If they don't, then you can literally just remove the oil with a solvent on something like an arkansas stone and use soapy water until the bubbles persist and you're back to water use.

The silica stones, whether they are coarse or queer creek, are all missing a little something that happens when pressure and heat and time press silicon dioxide into novaculite. I have no idea what it is but some ho-hum novaculite softs exhibit the same thing - though those type of soft stones are usually aggressive to make up for it.

Cleaned it up (thought it was going to be a yellowy colour but the mineral oil "turned" it grey) and sharpened up a Charles Taylor firmer chisel (nice thin lands, maybe it is of the paring variety.....came with a shallow bevel too). Not as coarse as my older India stone and not as "grabby" either. Not as fine as a razor stone but I am comparing apples to an orange. The only Arkansas stone I have is a tiny dental tool one so hard to get a good understanding of what it feels like.

Originally Posted by Mountain Ash

Cleaned it up (thought it was going to be a yellowy colour but the mineral oil "turned" it grey) and sharpened up a Charles Taylor firmer chisel (nice thin lands, maybe it is of the paring variety.....came with a shallow bevel too). Not as coarse as my older India stone and not as "grabby" either. Not as fine as a razor stone but I am comparing apples to an orange. The only Arkansas stone I have is a tiny dental tool one so hard to get a good understanding of what it feels like.

do you have any buffing bars in white, yellow or green? I'd say the acid test for a stone like this is if it can finish an edge off other than the burr removal and tip polishing from something like that on a harder softwood or softer hardwood.

My cretan still raises a small burr. But it takes very little to get rid of it. To go from india to buffing bar spread out with a drop of oil on a piece of softwood, not nearly so easy.

Hi David. I do have the green Veitas bar. I rub it out on a leather strop. Is this what you mean by a buffing bar?

yes, that one's pretty aggressive. but use it on wood or MDF rather than leather. Those two will work halfway or more than halfway to a hone, which will give you a more accurate read.

Just my personal view, but a stone that is faster and can be topped off by a regimen like that (does the double duty of polishing and stropping) is more useful to most - including me - than something like the finest of black or trans ark stones alone.

The same goes for razors, though it's not exactly this combination - for eons on the razor forums, people have been looking for a stone that doesn't exist and paying the moon for trying to get close to it ("Super fine natural stone that's really fast")

A two-stone pair, one like this and one "super finisher" that's slow is much faster to use in practice and a fifth of the cost in combination. But that's how the internet works - it creates unicorns and we chase them rather than using good horses around us.

I suspect you have a very good practical stone that won't need coddling - this test will prove it. My cretan fits this description - and the subpar turkish that's more brown than black is a bit finer yet and I guess can work as the "one stone", but the edge off of cretan and compound on MDF or cherry here is better than the turkish can make.