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  1. #16
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    Just about all the top selling (and some less so) tools these days are using Sanyo/Panasonic or Samsung cells. It seems these 2 manufacturers have between them developed a stranglehold on OEM cell contracts.

    That means everything from lowly priced Ryobi/AEG/Milwaukee/Ridgid to ludicrously overpriced Festo/Protool/Narex are using the same cells. The major differences being that some tool producers are doing it "on the cheap" by using much cheaper older generation cells rather than the cell manufacturer's latest models.

    It's a much bigger market than is appears too, as the cells in your cordless whipper snipper are the exact same cells in the latest electric vehicles. To be specific, Tesla has announced it will be fitting the same Samsung cells in their next-gen sports car as Bosch will be using in their latest Eneracer tool batteries, which are similar if not the same as Metabo's latest Li-HD batteries. The same ones as in the Formula E GP racers and Isle of Man TT E-Bikes.

    Two specific characteristics of these latest cells are important: firstly, using "enhanced" chemistry and heavier metallic busbars allows higher charge concentrations both in & out, and monitoring & regulation circuits within both batteries & tools allows for greater protection. This means that cells can stand higher rates of charge & discharge than previously, and that protective circuitry SHOULD provide longer cell life. Secondly, it also maintains essential backwards & (hopefully) forwards compatibility between tools, batteries & chargers.

    Heat, cold & exhaustive discharge are the 3 key enemies of virtually all Lithium battery chemistries. Something as simple as storage in a hot car in summer is enough to permanently damage, if not kill outright, a battery, and allowing a "simple" tool like a torch to fully & exhaustively discharge a battery may also irretrievably damage it. Most quality power tools & batteries will monitor the battery's state.

    Extensive heavy duty discharge will damage "lesser" batteries too. Makita's original cordless grinder had protective circuitry so sensitive that virtually any load at all on the grinder would trigger almost instantaneous shutdown! Their super-fast (22 min.) charger was I always felt a little too hard on the batteries too. The original Makita cells were also extremely sensitive to over-discharge, too with many colleagues' batteries suffering premature demise. Things have improved, or so I'm told. I've killed Bosch batteries a couple of times by leaving them in my Radio/Charger with the clock's display left on, with a slow, continuous long-term trickle of drain allowing for the deadly exhaustive discharge. Power tools, by contrast, usually shut down prior to damaging levels of discharge.

    Nevertheless, I've had both tool & battery becoming too hot to handle from holesawing steel girders without the protection cutting in, and Bosch cordless grinders only seem to shut down automatically following a jam: they can otherwise be "leaned on" almost to the point of stalling! I'm sure the heat generated is not particularly good for either battery or tool. These days quality tools & batteries are air cooled, with in my Bosch's case heatsink finning, fans etc. But they still get hot when worked hard! Just like me.

    The 80% charge figure suggested above seems to make sense for the ultimate battery longevity. Bosch 18 & 36v batteries & chargers always claimed the 80% charge capacity level from 50% charge time, meaning ultimate capacity diminishes over time. When lawn mowing heavy spring growth I often cycle batteries over the chargers faster than they can be fully charged, so far without any noticeable diminution of battery life or capacity. I still get my regulation 10 mins. wet or 20 mins. dry cutting per charge, despite them being used for several years semi-professionally in a variety of tools.
    Sycophant to nobody!

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  3. #17
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    Just to update everyone. I took the batteries and the charger back to Trade Tools. They said it will take 3 weeks.
    I was disappointed because I wanted to use them to put up some blinds and a few other small tasks.
    The guy told me not to worry. They always tell people it will take 3 weeks so that just in case it does take 3 weeks, people will not be frustrated.

    About 2 or 3 days later I get a text to say the items are ready to be picked up.
    They gave me 2 new 6Ah batteries and returned the charger.

    I have been using them with some light use so far. I have decided to keep them fully charged all the time now, in case it makes a difference. Figures crossed these ones will last a long time.
    I am going to keep them in the workshop. I suppose the heat of a QLD summer is not idea for these batteries but I can't see my wife letting me keep them under the bed. Just how sensitive to heat are they?
    It's not like I'm in Western Queensland or the desert or something.

  4. #18
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    Sep 2014
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    Australia
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVman View Post
    I suppose the heat of a QLD summer is not idea for these batteries but I can't see my wife letting me keep them under the bed. Just how sensitive to heat are they?
    It's not like I'm in Western Queensland or the desert or something.
    They should be fine in queensland summer. Just dont leave them out in the sun. Even when I am working outdoors I try and keep the battery tools in a shady spot

  5. #19
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    BobL, I think this may be the post I made that you may be referring to. From the guy that works for Schmidts Power Tools.
    A Guide to Comparing 18V Power Tool Batteries

    Stewie

  6. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stewie D View Post
    BobL, I think this may be the post I made that you may be referring to. From the guy that works for Schmidts Power Tools.
    A Guide to Comparing 18V Power Tool Batteries

    Stewie
    That's it.

    Just beware that info is now 3 years old, which is a long time in battery technology. However it still has some useful info.

    For those folks worried about temperature, Makita advises not storing Li-Ion batteries above 50ºC for any sort of extended period.
    My guess is than many Aussie shed get hotter than this and is probably the cause of some premature battery failures.

  7. #21
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    I don't think that my shed is more than this. All 3 windows have holes in them and even the old door is not what you would call watertight!!! So there is plenty of ventilation in there if I want it or not!
    Plus it has 2 trees overhanging it (much to my annoyance).

  8. #22
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    Just beware that info is now 3 years old, which is a long time in battery technology. However it still has some useful info.
    True. I should send him an email asking him to update that article.

    For those folks worried about temperature, Makita advises not storing Li-Ion batteries above 50ºC for any sort of extended period.
    My guess is than many Aussie shed get hotter than this and is probably the cause of some premature battery failures.
    You'd be right, given our climate and therefore sheds or workshops but I'd suggest that the temps most tradies would experience with where they store their tools in a locked or closed toolbox on the back of a ute may be even hotter.

    Stewie

  9. #23
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    Does anyone know what sort of protection Hitachi use?
    I was on the hunt for a hedge trimmer for mum and the Hitachi came out on top as it was the lightest by quite a margin and was pretty cheap. She had a Japanese Makita that used to have a belt clip mounted 12V SLA battery which ended up lasting for near 15 years, the battery was replaced with a solar panel and a capacitor, hahaha! I had a look at the Makitas and was pretty unimpressed, the Ryobi units had better fit and finish but I refuse to buy power tools from Bunnies.

    Long story short(ish), Sydney tool had the Hitachi skin for $149 and 4x18V 2.5AH batteries and charger for $189 so it was a bargain. I will say it is slower than Metabo, Husky etc etc and it cuts on the top on one side of the blade and the bottom on the other side but I think that reduces the weight an amount and should reduce friction helping run time........maybe.

  10. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ubernoob View Post
    Does anyone know what sort of protection Hitachi use?
    I was on the hunt for a hedge trimmer for mum and the Hitachi came out on top as it was the lightest by quite a margin and was pretty cheap. She had a Japanese Makita that used to have a belt clip mounted 12V SLA battery which ended up lasting for near 15 years, the battery was replaced with a solar panel and a capacitor, hahaha! I had a look at the Makitas and was pretty unimpressed, the Ryobi units had better fit and finish but I refuse to buy power tools from Bunnies.

    Long story short(ish), Sydney tool had the Hitachi skin for $149 and 4x18V 2.5AH batteries and charger for $189 so it was a bargain. I will say it is slower than Metabo, Husky etc etc and it cuts on the top on one side of the blade and the bottom on the other side but I think that reduces the weight an amount and should reduce friction helping run time........maybe.
    Protection from what?
    They honour their warranty as I wrote above.
    I don't believe that you can do much harm by leaving them in the charger. The charger switches off once they are charged. I tested this and the charger stays cool. If you left it in the charger for weeks or months you might slowly drain it perhaps so I wouldn't recommend trying that.

    I have the 6ah batteries from Hitachi.
    Sometimes it would be nice to have a couple of the smaller batteries for quick jobs. Especially if I'm holding the tool above my head.

    Protection from electrical shock? That would be difficult, since it is a cordless device. Plus it would need a return path to the battery not earth. However 18v at 2.5Amps is 45Watts. Maybe less than ideal if you have a pace maker but its difficult to see anyone getting hurt by that. Might make you drop the tool though. Not sure how you would get shocked through the plastic and rubber body of the tool. Even the battery terminals are designed in such a way that it would be extremely difficult to short them out by accident. Unless your mother is in the habit of licking batteries...

    Did you mean protection from rain?

    Being dropped? They can take a fair bit of that by the look and feel of my tools.



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  11. #25
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    One thing I have noticed is that the modern 'smart' chargers can be a trap.

    If the battery is too flat the charger refuses to charge them.

    I have gotten out of this a couple of times by using brute force, I used a 'non-smart' charger to get the flat battery started for a couple of minutes & then it will charge on the 'smart' charger.
    Cliff.
    If you find a post of mine that is missing a pic that you'd like to see, let me know & I'll see if I can find a copy.

  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVman View Post
    Protection from what?
    They honour their warranty as I wrote above.
    I don't believe that you can do much harm by leaving them in the charger. The charger switches off once they are charged. I tested this and the charger stays cool. If you left it in the charger for weeks or months you might slowly drain it perhaps so I wouldn't recommend trying that.

    I have the 6ah batteries from Hitachi.
    Sometimes it would be nice to have a couple of the smaller batteries for quick jobs. Especially if I'm holding the tool above my head.

    Protection from electrical shock? That would be difficult, since it is a cordless device. Plus it would need a return path to the battery not earth. However 18v at 2.5Amps is 45Watts. Maybe less than ideal if you have a pace maker but its difficult to see anyone getting hurt by that. Might make you drop the tool though. Not sure how you would get shocked through the plastic and rubber body of the tool. Even the battery terminals are designed in such a way that it would be extremely difficult to short them out by accident. Unless your mother is in the habit of licking batteries...

    Did you mean protection from rain?

    Being dropped? They can take a fair bit of that by the look and feel of my tools.



    Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

    Sorry, I don't really know much about them I guess they have low voltage cutout and with all the terminals on the battery I'd assume the balancing is done by the charger. Is over current normally in the tool or the battery?

    The manual for the batteries or hedge trimmer said not to leave the battery on charge for more than two hours.
    The only Hitachi tool I own is a grinder so I'll be interested to see how well everything lasts, having four batteries should make it last a while if they are stored charged.

  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ubernoob View Post
    Sorry, I don't really know much about them I guess they have low voltage cutout and with all the terminals on the battery I'd assume the balancing is done by the charger. Is over current normally in the tool or the battery?

    The manual for the batteries or hedge trimmer said not to leave the battery on charge for more than two hours.
    The only Hitachi tool I own is a grinder so I'll be interested to see how well everything lasts, having four batteries should make it last a while if they are stored charged.
    Yes the Hitachi ones have a low voltage cut out. The tool will seem to just stop and refuse to start. In fact its in the battery.

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  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff Rogers View Post
    One thing I have noticed is that the modern 'smart' chargers can be a trap.

    If the battery is too flat the charger refuses to charge them.

    I have gotten out of this a couple of times by using brute force, I used a 'non-smart' charger to get the flat battery started for a couple of minutes & then it will charge on the 'smart' charger.
    I've read about this numerous times on the web except they say it's the smarts in the battery. They force the battery to accept a charge but I'm sure that would void the warranty.

    If it's the charger then how do I get a non smart charger?

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  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ubernoob View Post
    Sorry, I don't really know much about them I guess they have low voltage cutout and with all the terminals on the battery I'd assume the balancing is done by the charger. Is over current normally in the tool or the battery?

    The manual for the batteries or hedge trimmer said not to leave the battery on charge for more than two hours.
    The only Hitachi tool I own is a grinder so I'll be interested to see how well everything lasts, having four batteries should make it last a while if they are stored charged.
    I didn't see or didn't notice anything in the instructions about not leaving them on the charger but that would agree with advice given here by someone else.

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  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVman View Post
    ....

    If it's the charger then how do I get a non smart charger?....
    Can't recommend anything off the shelf.
    I'm an electronics tech, I had a 2nd charger so I opened it & 'dumbed' it down.
    Now that I know not to let them get too flat I haven't had the problem again.
    Cliff.
    If you find a post of mine that is missing a pic that you'd like to see, let me know & I'll see if I can find a copy.

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