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  1. #1
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    Default How to care for Li-ion batteries?

    I have invested in the Hitachi 18v cordless system with the 6 Amphour batteries.
    I have acquired a few tools over a few months. Everything is still under warranty.

    All was well until the other week, when I found the batteries will not charge. One is now completely useless and the other will only hold a few minutes work worth of charge.
    They have lost their "memory".

    I am only using it for DIY stuff and some woodwork projects in the weekends, or briefly during the week. Although I have been rather busy lately so the tools have not sat idle for long either.
    So basically light use for such tools - but not so infrequent as to be a problem.

    The only instruction I saw was to quickly charge the batteries after draining them - which I did.
    I keep the batteries in the shed but we haven't had the hot weather yet so there has been no extreme temperature to worry about.

    The batteries are only a few months old. Almost new. I didn't count how many times I have charged them or used them in that time - but it has not been a great many times.

    So I am perplexed as to what, if anything, I did wrong.

    I did some research on the internet but they suggest things that I expect would invalidate the warranty and don't give me any insight it to why it might have happened in my case.

    I want to return them under warranty but (a) did I do something wrong? (b) how to stop it happening again?

    Could it be the charger?

    Or are the new Hitachi 18V slide batteries known for QA problems?

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  3. #2
    themage21 is offline So that's how you change this field...
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    In general, Li-ion is totally different to NiCd and NiMH that many older toolies would have been used to. If this has been an upgrade from a Ni based system that you've had for ages, there are some key differences.

    In general with Li-ion, the rules are:
    - Try not to discharge to absolutely dead. The days of putting a tie wire around the trigger and walking off until the drill finally stopped turning are over (and should be avoided)
    - Try to keep them cool
    - Don't leave them on charge indefinitely (they don't have the same self-discharge issues as the Nickel batteries, so that generally saves you)
    - For the love of all that is holy, don't put them in the freezer
    - In general, Li-ion batteries should be "good" for around 500 charges and will steadily decline after that. Performance will slowly decline and then normally suddenly drop off a cliff.
    - They hate everything associated with power hand tools - dust, vibration, shocks and abuse, but are better than Ni batteries (no more 16 hour charges), so who cares?

    I've found that an ace way to kill Li-ion batteries is to have them left on the charger - seems to kill them faster than anything else other than physical destruction.

    It's my strong suspicion that the majority of power tools in the Hitachi-Milwaukee-Makita-DeWalt price point use batteries from the same provider, with very minor differences to the cases that make them incompatible. While you can always point the blame at not paying for different levels of QA in production, the highly similar price point across brands leads me to believe that if one was having a problem, they probably all would. That also said, 6Ah is a pretty high capacity battery. To fit it into the packaging so that it doesn't look silly may lead to shortcuts being made, particularly with airflow and heat control.

    It's always possible that your charger has stuffed up - two batteries going bad is a fair indicator that it's a common cause, whether it be a batch issue, care/abuse problem or a charger that doesn't know the difference between 2.0 and 3.7V/cell.

    Take them back to the shop if they're in warranty. You'll know pretty soon if it's the charger, because the new batteries will also fail to charge properly pretty quickly.

    Also, for the record, Li-Ion batteries don't have the old "memory" effect like Ni-based batteries were reported to have. If you charge them from 90%, they should still give you the same 100 - 0% output, however what you might find is that every so often you do have to run the battery down a bit more so that the little bitty control chip on the inside of the battery can re-calibrate itself.

    Hopefully that all helps.

  4. #3
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    Thank you for the quick and detailed response.

    Quote Originally Posted by themage21 View Post

    Also, for the record, Li-Ion batteries don't have the old "memory" effect like Ni-based batteries were reported to have.
    - Yes I have read that so it only makes me more perplexed.

    I don't want to go back to the stop and be spun a bunch of BS and be denied a replacement. So I'm trying to figure out if I could have done anything wrong but I don't see anything.

    Which also could mean I get the same result with replacements.

    You mentioned not leaving them on the charger for too long. I don't believe that I did but after a while I did sometimes start to leave them on the charger overnight. If that is an issue, doesn't the charger include circuitry to stop feeding a charge once it reaches capacity? I was originally an electronic engineer and even back in those ancient times we had such circuitry built into integrated circuits. I haven't touched a soldering iron for a very long time but, who would design something for trades people, that could not be left over a weekend unattended?
    With the Hitachi the light changes and the cooling fan stops once it reaches charge. The battery and the charger are cold.

    Or did you mean, if they are left on the charger for weeks? That might inadvertently slowly discharge them, so I can see that being an issue.
    Having said that, I'm willing to try anything to prevent it happening again.

  5. #4
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    [QUOTE=themage21;1985475]- In general, Li-ion batteries should be "good" for around 500 charges and will steadily decline after that. Performance will slowly decline and then normally suddenly drop off a cliff.

    A well made Li-ion should last for ~1000 charges before slowing down significantly.
    My G3 iPhone lasted for slightly over 6 years before I retired it due to being unable to upgrade OS/Apps. I estimate it has been charged over 1100 times and and only in the last few months have I noticed the battery life diminishing.
    It still operates but not as a phone and I leave it in my shed for use as an MP3 player and calculator.

    I've found that an ace way to kill Li-ion batteries is to have them left on the charger - seems to kill them faster than anything else other than physical destruction.
    This is related to the battery and charger not being able to control charging correctly.
    A smart battery/charger should allow a battery to be left indefinitely on a charger.
    see below.

    It's my strong suspicion that the majority of power tools in the Hitachi-Milwaukee-Makita-DeWalt price point use batteries from the same provider, with very minor differences to the cases that make them incompatible. While you can always point the blame at not paying for different levels of QA in production, the highly similar price point across brands leads me to believe that if one was having a problem, they probably all would. .
    There are significant differences in these batteries related to temperature/charging control.
    Some chargers/batteries have much better temp/charging control built into them than others.
    Someone posted a link to a discussion of the differences but I cannot find it. It's a very interesting read.

    In directly if you want batteries to last a long time both between charges and overall try brushless power tools. They really do make a big difference.

  6. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by themage21 View Post

    I've found that an ace way to kill Li-ion batteries is to have them left on the charger - seems to kill them faster than anything else other than physical destruction.
    This should not be the case, as the chargers for Li-ion batteries are (or should be) capable of turning off once the battery is fully charged. Charging li-ion is not like older type batteries, it requires much more care due the chemistry. If this is the case, I would be looking at replacing the charger.

    Also, FWIW the big killer is heat and over discharging. Also, never store them when discharged.


    Even still, batteries should not die in the warranty period. I would take them and the charger back for repair/replacement.

  7. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pearo View Post
    This should not be the case, as the chargers for Li-ion batteries are (or should be) capable of turning off once the battery is fully charged. Charging li-ion is not like older type batteries, it requires much more care due the chemistry. If this is the case, I would be looking at replacing the charger.

    Also, FWIW the big killer is heat and over discharging. Also, never store them when discharged.


    Even still, batteries should not die in the warranty period. I would take them and the charger back for repair/replacement.
    Yes I agree completely. All Li Fe chargers should either switch off or move to a trickle change of a few mA.

  8. #7
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    Id warranty them ASAP.

    A friend of mine is the Oz regional sales head of batteries for Sanyo, previously Panasonic (Eneloop). He is a battery nutcase. His advice is pretty simple:

    -- Dont discharge them to dead or leave them that way
    -- Charge them slowly
    -- Keep them cool (esp during charge)
    -- Dont fully charge them.

    The last point was interesting. His advice was to 80% charge, but there is no charger for that. He advised just keeping an eye on them and pulling it off as it gets around that number.

    To show it works, I'm still using my original Ipad and Iphone 3. Both of which are used daily and are 6 years old and showing no signs of diminishing. My Sony Alpha camera is the same.

    He advised to do this regardless of battery type or make, even the Eneloops.

  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yanis View Post
    Yes I agree completely. All Li Fe chargers should either switch off or move to a trickle change of a few mA.
    Just to be pedantic there's no such thing as a Li Fe battery.
    The general term is LIB "Lithium ION batteries" but an Ion is a different thing altogether from Iron
    The main types of LIBs include, LiCoO2, , LiFePO4, LiMn2O4, Li2MnO3, LiNiMnCoO2 , LiNiCoAlO2 and Li4Ti5O12 but there's no straight Li Fe battery.

  10. #9
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    I have just bought a 18 volt Milwaukee drill and impact drive,they say that leaving them in the charger all the time is OK,any comments please.

  11. #10
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    I've got deWalt gear. It says you should leave each battery in the charger for at least 8 hours, about once a week to:
    "Equalises or balances the individual cells... allowing it to function at peak capacity." blah blah, evey 10 cycles or weekly, blah blah..
    I've only done it by accident, a cple time in the past, say, five years, and all my Li batteries still work fine. (some younger)
    TM

    I should edit this post, as I realize that mine are not the latest gen, they are the older "post" type (not sure of chemistry, but the older Li Ion), so the remarks above are probably not relevant.
    TM

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    Thanks for all the replies guys.
    Unfortunately it just leaves me even more mystified why these batteries are no good.
    As I say I haven't counted the number of times I've used or charged them but it would be less than 30 times.

  13. #12
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    Could be a charger problem.
    Do you know anyone with similar gear to try charging on his charger. (or else just take them back, Including charger).
    TM

  14. #13
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    You probably haven't done anything wrong, just bought a dud product and the warranty should cover you, if it doesn't the ACCC will probably make it happen.

    A phone is a fair bit different to a drill, if you could run a phone flat in an hour and it lasted 6 years I'd be impressed but the slow discharge and charge rate would help it greatly. Lots of new phones have big batteries that will fully charge in an hour so if they aren't replaceable by the end user there could be phones that are only useable for a year or two.
    My Li-Ion laptop has probably done 1000 cycles and it still seems to have 90+% capacity of new and my NiMh battery drill of the same vintage won't hold much charge at all and it wasn't used much and was kept charged, it has also started to skip gears so Panasonic won't be on the list for a replacement drill.

  15. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrb View Post
    I have just bought a 18 volt Milwaukee drill and impact drive,they say that leaving them in the charger all the time is OK,any comments please.
    Same with my new Makita gear. The new chargers completely turn off the charging circuit and will not apply any more charge until the battery is removed.

    The Makita manual does say not to reinsert a battery that is fully charged back into the charger as this will restart the charging circuit and it will try to add a bit more charge

    AT the other end of the scale the new Makita gear will not allow you to run a battery fully flat even if you hold the trigger down with a device.
    It stops the tool and the battery has to go back into a charger before it will work again. This must apply to other gear as well.

  16. #15
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    Yes the Hitachi stops the tool as well. The battery wont start anything again until you charge it.

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