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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
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    Default SCMS/CMS for small shed, and track (plunge) saw - Scheppach vs Makita

    I'm going to be building a small shed - 5x4m.

    I'd like a sliding compound mitre saw, first to build the shed frame, but then to have as a stationary tool in the shed for making some furniture.
    I plan to have machines down one side (~800mm taken), an island / central bench, and then a long bench with cabinets / drawers running down the other side. In the middle of this long bench would be the SCMS, with the bench acting as in and out feed. I had planned for a 600-700 deep bench.
    A SCMS has much greater capacity than a CMS but the rails sticking out the back are a problem.
    The Bosch GCM 12 GDL looks great and can be located against a wall. However, I'm not sure spending $1000 on a saw that I'll use at best infrequently is worthwhile. If I bought a cheaper tool, I can spend the difference on other things such as better dust extraction. They have a 10" model in the US, but I can't find it in Australia.
    Can any one recommend a decent SCMS that doesn't have rails stick out the back? That really is the main sticking point for me.
    The other alternative is a compound mitre saw - certainly cheaper, but much less capacity.

    I also want a track saw.
    I'm tossing up between the Makita SP6000JT (~$650+shipping best I could find, plus need to buy clamps) vs the Scheppach CS-55 ($300 complete kit at the moment - I expect to add a decent blade at $50 to $100).
    I've done a fair bit of research and am aware the Scheppach has short comings of excess spring force, and glide strips installed too close together - both fixable. What I'm unsure about is whether the quality of the track etc is a significant problem.
    There are vague mentions of improvements with more recent ones?
    Again, this is a tool I'm unlikely to use often once I've built the shed - likely lucky to use every few months, so if the saw at half the price will do a decent job then I would probably go with that.

    Edit: Sydney tool have a 1200W no name for $199 with rail...

    I'm battling between my natural tendancy to get a 'bargain' (i.e. a cheap tool) versus my growing desire to buy good tools that work well and last.

    My main tools are actually CNC - metal mill, lathe and a CNC router that I built.

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  3. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
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    I'm not sure if there is another saw that doesn't stick out at the back. However, if you haven't built your shed yet, you could build a pocket in the wall to allow the sliding mechanism to go into so you can have your bench against the wall.

    With regard to the track saw, I reckon the cheapy sydney tools track saw is better than the Scheppach. If you look at its track, the gliding strips are further apart than the Scheppach ones, I reckon this saw is more stable. The spring may be less stiff as well.

  4. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    South Australia
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    Consider buying A Radial Arm Saw, will do pretty much what the scms and track saw will do and can be mounted against the wall

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
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    Melbourne
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    6,127

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    Quote Originally Posted by justonething View Post
    I'm not sure if there is another saw that doesn't stick out at the back.
    The only other one I can think of is the Festool, but that's even more expensive.

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Port Huon
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    2,685

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    The Scheppach tracks are quite well made and accurate. As you mention though, the glide strips that the saw runs on, are too close. The spring is an easy fix.

    The hard rubber anti splinter strips are sacrificial. If you use the saw to cut at 45 degrees, then the strip gets re-cut and are then useless for 90 degree cuts.
    I've been unable to find a suitable rubber/plastic that's the same thickness and the same stiffness as the original strips. I must check with Machinery House to see if they carry spares of these. When I bought my saw last year, they didn't.

  7. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
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    se Melbourne
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    Re SCMS: The Hitachi might also be suitable. https://www.masters.com.au/product/9...c12rsh-h1-grey
    I have not used this saw so it comes with no recommendation. I have looked at it in store and you may find it is suitable with the way the guide rails work, it can also bevel left and right - many SCMS cannot bevel to the right.

    With regards to track saws, I have the Festool TS55. Do not regret buying it. While I admit they are not cheap, parts are readily available either in store or by order. This includes tracks, clamps, joiners, the various splinter guard, rubber and slide strips on the tracks and blades. Since I do not have a SCMS, the track saw is often called upon to do the job, it only gets difficult when items get under about 180mm in width. Dust collection with the TS55 when connected to a dust extractor is very good to excellent depending on what you are cutting.

    You are not only buying for today, but for use in ten and twenty years time.

  8. #7
    Join Date
    May 2004
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    Sth. Island, Oz.
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    Not even a Radial Arm Saw shows a flush back to the wall either. At least in DeWalt's case all "modern" iterations of Raymond DeWalt's design have a hand cranked depth of cut adjustment @ the top of the (rearmost located) column. This not only requires clearance to rotate, but a bit more too to avoid banging one's knuckles. Thus creating the dreaded "dust gap" you're trying to avoid. Radial Arm Saws are big, heavy and (if properly setup and maintained) accurate too. It's a workshop machine designed to live in a permanently fixed position on an island bench or integrated into a longer workbench against a wall. SCMS by contrast are more of a portable contractor's saw for quick and (reasonably) accurate site work. A Radial Arm Saw is designed to perform at peak accuracy and efficiency for some 30 years of more, an SCMS would have a probable designed lifespan of about 5.

    The Festo Kapex saw is indeed capable of sitting flush backed to a wall, and has superior dust collecting capabilities to boot, but at some $1800 odd it's an expensive and rather eccentric alternative. Realistically it's price/performance ratio is severely compromised: as a SCMS it's probably worth about $900 or so in relation to the other saws on the market. I personally had no end of trouble with mine, and eventually replaced it with a Bosch glide saw. To be fair to Festo, some users sing it's praises, but I had quite severe safety and operative concerns about mine. So far my Bosch saw has been reliable. If dust collection is a priority then SCMS don't come better than Metabo's KGS 315 Plus & 254 plus. The former, incidentally, has easily the biggest cutting capacities available too, actually rivalling smaller Radial Arm Saws. No flush back though!

    If permanent flush fitting is your priority then maybe a Radial Arm in a dedicated workbench with a home made dust cowl and chute connected to your vac is in order.

    As for track saws, there's a few on the market now. Best of all of course is Mafell's MT55 CC, which uses tracks in common with the Bosch family. Or you could get a Bosch I suppose, which is essentially the same saw as the Mafell (same factory) but missing some non-essential but nice to have features. Think VW & Audi and your (sort of) getting the picture. They're not cheap of course, being about a grand or so each setup with a couple of tracks, but the again best (Mafell) never is...

    Then there's Festool's TS 55R, which at some $1700 odd for a similar setup to the others is unconscionably expensive. Especially as every back-to-back comparison I've read hails the Mafell clearly superior in price, performance, features, power and speed. It's probably a better saw than the Bosch version, however, as it should be for about $700 more.

    Interestingly, the Bosch/Mafell track/rail system isn't compatible with Festo, but the Festo/Metabo rail system fits both Bosch & Mafell saws, not just the rail saws but their pendulum models too. The Festo/Metabo rail is a pretty old design (35 years), so its not surprising there's better featured alternatives available these days.

    Another possibility might be Metabo's combination plunge/rail/circular saw reviewed elsewhere in this forum as a better valued & more versatile performer. Prices for these sometimes get as low as $550 odd for a basic setup with Systainer & one rail, so it's still going to be a helluva lot cheaper than the Euro alternatives. I quite like mine.

    I can't comment on any less expensive alternatives as I haven't used any. Sometimes less is more, but the law of diminishing returns often works both ways: the higher the price the more marginal the increased "benefits, the lower the price the less the compromised benefit inherent in the price. Nevertheless, a cheap saw will always remain.... well, a cheap saw!
    Sycophant to nobody!

  9. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Geelong
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    Not sure if I am missing the point/reason for flush mounting at the rear but my SCMS is set at the front of my bench and I have dead space behind it (well it isn't at the moment as this is where my DC sits until I set it up on duct work outside). So my bench is 1200 deep with rack/shelf at the back so actual bench depth is 900. With the saw set at the front of the bench I can feed in a 6 mtr plus lengths of timber as it clears the roller door entrance just nice. If I set it back I would lose that ability and would also be reaching over to use the saw.

    like I said I may be missing the point altogether 😀😀

    cheers

  10. #9
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    Sth. Island, Oz.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrongwayfirst View Post
    Not sure if I am missing the point/reason for flush mounting at the rear but my SCMS is set at the front of my bench and I have dead space behind it (well it isn't at the moment as this is where my DC sits until I set it up on duct work outside). So my bench is 1200 deep with rack/shelf at the back so actual bench depth is 900. With the saw set at the front of the bench I can feed in a 6 mtr plus lengths of timber as it clears the roller door entrance just nice. If I set it back I would lose that ability and would also be reaching over to use the saw.

    like I said I may be missing the point altogether 

    cheers

    The workshop in question was a mere 4000 x 5000: a 1200mm bench/shelf setup would take up some 30% of available floorspace!

    The brief wasn't so much a "flush back" per se, but an "SCMS that doesn't have rails sticking out the back", presumably to save precious floorspace. A Radial Arm Saw was recommended, however it too would require at least 900mm of bench width (or 20% of the floor) to accommodate it. With some compact SCMS, like a Kapex or Bosch Glide saw the bench width could be minimised.

    I really like the concept of allowing longer lengths to protrude through the entrance. It shows intelligent planning: I have to move my setup outside to accommodate longer lengths.
    Sycophant to nobody!

  11. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    About to move
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    FOX brand of scms used to have a model with system similar to Festool, a quick goggle will reveal it. I've never used one but believe they were available here. Both BOSCH & MILWAUKEE used to have hinged systems which allowed against the wall mounting and it made lots of sense if accuracy can be maintained.

    Suggest you consider noise too. There are times when I want to use a saw but am held back because of the amount of noise nearly all scms produce; there are exceptions to this rule and you have been given hints from posters above. RAS back to the future. You just have to be aware of their differences and don't be told there aren't any; they will bite the unaware.

    In regard to tracksaws, For most of us casual users the price of Festool products is hard to justify and the alternatives already mentioned are more than likely fit for purpose for most of us. That is what you need to consider... Fit For Your Purpose.

  12. #11
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    Sep 2009
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    Newcastle
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    Thanks for all the replies!

    Ratbag is correct regarding the space problem. 4m wide workshop means relatively narrow benches. The Bosch glide saw looks like it will fit within 700mm front to back.

    I thought about a pocket/recess in the wall, but it would result in too many compromises and problems with insulation and cladding etc.

    Handyjack: I had come across the Hitachi. It can be mounted close to wall with the rails fixed forwards. The Bosch seems to be a nicer saw however. Currently can get the Bosch for ~$1000 with a stand and a couple of blades. The Hitachi seems to go for $800 bare.

  13. #12
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    Yes the Bosch is at a good price right now. I reckon if that suits your needs then get it and if and when your circumstances change, you can always sell it at not much less than what you will pay for.

  14. #13
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    After watching a few videos I am leaning strongly towards the Bosch - it has a lot of nice features.

    I probably need to go to Sydney in a couple of weeks anyway, so can grab one then.

  15. #14
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    Jun 2005
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    There is a 10" version of the glide saw these days which should be more compact and might suit you better. You could build a bump out for the saw and conceal it in an outside compressor/dust collector housing if you wanted to use a twin rail saw.
    CHRIS

  16. #15
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    Sep 2009
    Location
    Newcastle
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    I saw that there is a 10" Bosch Glide but I can't find the 10" in Australia at all

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