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  1. #1
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    Default What turns you on as a woodworker?

    Hi gang

    This post was stimulated by the discussion on the Woodrat jig on the Routing forum.

    I must emphasise at the outset that I am as much a tool junkie as any (all?) on this site. But I am baulking increasingly at the idea of using machines to do the work that was once the mark of a craftsman. OK, I'm just a hobbiest, and my methods would not be viable for someone needing to do a cost-effective production run. But are we woodworkers or machinists? And before I go any further I must again emphasise that I still continue to use many machines (table saw, bandsaw, drill press, routers - I own 3 electric and 2 non-electric - the list goes on). It is not so much the use of these machines in themselves, but in the use of templates to do the work that our eye and hand could otherwise do. I own and have used a dovetail jig to make dovetails. I am now trying to master the art of cutting them by hand. I am in the throws of completing a cradle for a friend who is having their first child. I built a finger jig for my table saw and used a dado blade in its construction. It looks pretty nice, but there's something mechanical about the joints - too uniform - for my liking. I used hand planes (including a compass plane to smooth curves) and a spoke shave in the construction of the remainder. This gave me enormous satisfaction as I felt that I had crafted something.

    I believe that there is as much fun in the journey (how to cut a particular joint, or finding a solution to whatever) as in the finished product.

    I may admire the ingenuity of the Woodrat's design but I sure will never purchase a tool like this. To each his/her own. I am sure that my comments will irk some - great! Let's get opinions from as many as possible. Under the skin we still share a love of wood, which is what brings us together in the first place, so be constructive and no personal attacks. My response is about what turns you on in woodworking, why you do what you do, and what you do it with.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

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  3. #2
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    Derek,

    What turns me on is the end result, and I have no qualms about how I got there. If it is entirely by machinery, that's fine by me. I admire the skills of craftsmen who do everything with hand tools, but they are living in a time warp really. It serves no real purpose to hold on to the old ways, as far as I am concerned.

    I like the taste of bread which is made by hand and cooked in a home oven, but why bother when I can buy it already made in a packet ? I have better things to do with my time.

    I realise you were alluding to what you probably feel is a romantic attachment to hand tool skills, but I don't share your view. The more machines the better for me.

    If you ever get really guilty about using your dovetail jig, feel free to send it my way.

  4. #3
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    North Ryde, NSW
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    Default

    I have to agree with Ken on this one. While I can appreciate the use of hand tools, (and lets face it, in several applications they do a better job than there powered cousins....e.g. planes) the modern power tools just make the job that much easier and quicker. Who wants to spend a day sanding a job by hand?? I'm speaking for myself of course, but sanding is the least pleasant job there is! And my power saws cut a straighter, more accurate line than I could ever hope to by hand.
    "I may be drunk, but you ma'am, are ugly. Tomorrow, I will be sober." Winston Churchill

  5. #4
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    Adelaide, SA
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    I can't agree with either attitude entirely!!

    Sometimes when I'm making a piece of furniture for myself or, as I am at the moment, making some window sashes for my sister. I want the end result, how I get there does not concern me. I will never be a craftsman (something to do with eye/hand coordination!) and machines do the best and fastest job.

    Other times I get a lot of enjoyment out of using hand tools - takes longer and the end result is not as good. I will never get the shoulders of a tenon as square by hand as I will by machine but I do get satisfaction if I get it good enough that only I will see the errors.

    So, as I see it, it all depends on what you are doing and why.

    Sanding - no, I get no satisfaction from doing that by hand - and it really takes as much skill to use a power sander as doing the job by hand, the machine just does it faster, which of course can be disastrous! I always finish sand by hand anyway, there are always those little corners you can't do with a machine.

    So, I am not going to fight on either side, fence sitter that's me.
    GeoffS

  6. #5
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    Default

    I'm on the power tools side. While I like using my hand planes, nearly everything else I like to use has a motor in it. In all honesty, if it was not for power tools, I would not be anywhere near as interested in woodwork as I am.

    Now, my Grandfather (86 not out) is an old Master Builder, Cabinetmaker, ++ (trained in Holland) and he also loves his power tools. When he sees some of my toys like Dovetail jigs, Triton routers, Incra Jig fences, Dust Collectors, etc. he comments that he wishes he had those things when he was younger.

    My 2.2 cents. Flame on.
    Wayne
    ______________________________________________
    "I'd be delighted to offer any advice I have on understanding women.
    When I have some, I'll let you know."
    Picard

    * New Website - Updates Coming Soon *
    http://wayneswoodwork.davyfamily.com/

  7. #6
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    Default

    I have absolutely no doubt that they would have been using power tools and jigs hundreds of years ago if such things were widely available.

    Of course some people can do great work by hand, but for repeatablility you can't go past modern aids. A good thing, I think as you are free to explore wood as a medium and be creative, knowing that the only limitations are more within yourself.

  8. #7
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    Default

    From www.dictionary.reference.com :

    "One skilled in some trade or manual occupation; an artificer; a mechanic."

    Generally usage would mean that a craftsman is someone that transforms or creates some material/s into something else of greater functional or aesthetic value. I don't really think the methods/tools are that important really.

  9. #8
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    Stoppers - I looked in my dictionary and bugger me there was a photo of you next to 'Craftsman'. ....... Or was that next too...................

  10. #9
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    Default

    I think Derek's original question is really interesting. Like him, I'm a hobby woodworker and for that reason have no pressure (beyond the self-induced) to meet deadlines or operate within commercial constraints. That fact obviously colours my attitude.

    This is such a personal issue. I took up woodwork again three years ago after a very long break (how's 25 years?) because now that I'm too old to be a competitive sportsman I wanted some outlet at the weekends. I've bought some good power tools and I'm really happy with them. What I've found fascinating is that - in attempting to produce work that satisfies me - I've wanted to go back to basic techniques and try to develop the skill to produce work by hand. Furthermore, in doing so - attempting to hand-cut dovetails, for example - I've learnt some really useful stuff about accurate set-out and so on. I also feel strongly that you develop a better feel for the wood as material if you're shaping it using hand/eye skills.

    On the other hand, I'm quite happy to use jigs and power tools if I've got a project that requires a significant amount of repetitive work (I entirely agree with the comments about power sanders! Hand sanding is just boring - nothing else - just boring). And I'm always a bit sceptical about purists in any field.

    Be interested to see some more comment on this.

    Driver.

  11. #10
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    Hi gang

    I thought that I would chip in at this point and clarify a point that I thought I had made before, but obviously not clearly enough.

    The point is not about the use of machines, per se. I could not do without my table saw and I wonder how I could have gone without my new bandsaw in the past. I recently built a Jarrah bed that had 84 mortice and tennon joints. There was NO way that I was going to do this with just a chisel (I do, however, own mortice chisels). I am not masochistic and I value my elbows! I used a router and then, on 80 of the mortices, squared the edges with a chisel. If I had sanding to do I am equally unlikely to do it by hand, unless it was a final rub down with very high grit, and turn to one or more of several sanders I own (particularly my Festos). Machines like these are not just time savers, they are also to do the uninteresting and mechanical, repetitive work. But the point is that they are used NOT because they are better than doing it by hand, BUT because they are quicker or less effort.

    (Incidentally, a well hand-planed board does not need any sanding).

    The comment I made originally had to do with the use of jigs or equipment to replace the hand and eye. That is ...

    1. To what degree do you feel that your craftsmanship is limited by what your machines are capable of?

    2. And to what degree do you ever use hand tools (chisels, planes, draw knives. scrapers, etc), either in place of or to supplement your machines?

    3. Another question is whether you feel happy to use modern joinery shortcuts (e.g. butt joints with biscuits or pocket hole screws, maybe including the Beadlock as well) over traditional joinery (machine- or hand cut M&T joints, etc).

    No doubt other related questions will later come to mind.

    Looking forward to all the responses.

    Warm regards from Perth

    Derek

  12. #11
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    Default

    Derek and others,

    IVF versus natural conception came to mind (excuse the pun). Surely the modern method of conception (IVF) is far more satisfying than having sex because it is the latest and therefore the best!

    I too use both power and hand tools. Sure, sometimes the hand tools are slightly slower than power tools however the hand tools are far more flexible and I prefer to use them for this reason and of course for the pleasure of using them.

    There are many examples where people using power tools has limited the design of a piece of furniture. This is a pity because to take that argument to it's conclusion we will eventually be quickly making simpler designed furniture.

    I suggest a sensible approach would be to use the best tool for the job without limiting your design or taking too long.

    - Wood Borer

    PS Our kids were naturally conceived and I have no complaints.

  13. #12
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    Ok Derek, being in mind that this is a Weekend Hobby to me:

    1. I dont' feel that my machinery limits my craftmanship at all.

    2. I use my Hand Planes quite a bit but initial planing/sizing of boards is done on a Jointer/Thicknesser. Chisels are always in use. I could not put a percentage on it, it depends on the job at hand. Sometimes lots othertimes minimal hand tool use.

    3. As for jointing methods - whatever is suitable to the piece. If I am making/repairing something that is a period piece - Dovetails/Mortice/Tenon come in to play. These are machine cut with Dovetail Jig/Incra Jig, Chisel Mortiser and Router Table (or Bandsaw).

    I do use my Pocket Hole Jig a bit and use Biscuits quite a lot but mainly to join boards for table tops. While some might say these are new methods they aren't - we just have nice jigs/cutters to do them. I have seen hand cut screw 'pockets' under numerous traditional pieces and 'splined' joints have been in use for years (centuries probably).

    To me, it is the timesaving of the machinery as I am very time poor between work and two little ones in the house (not to mention SHMBO).

    Maybe when I retire (which is too far away to even think about), I will get into the hand tools more and in that theme I have started collecting old tools. But, until then, power on!

    Oh - Wood Borer - While I totally agree natural is great - to some couples IVF is the only option and not because it is better.
    Wayne
    ______________________________________________
    "I'd be delighted to offer any advice I have on understanding women.
    When I have some, I'll let you know."
    Picard

    * New Website - Updates Coming Soon *
    http://wayneswoodwork.davyfamily.com/

  14. #13
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    Wayne,

    I am aware of why people use IVF and on reflection perhaps I should have thought of another analogy. I am sorry if I have offended anyone. I realise that the IVF program has brought happiness to many childless couples.

    My point was that new is not necessarily better.

    I recently met a recent graduate of a Funiture Course who was flustered because he needed to make a mortise greater than 50mm deep and couldn't find a router bit of sufficient length. He had spent hours searching web sites and the internet.

    My suggestion to him that he cut the mortise using a chisel was met with a response of laughter and "get out of here". He ended up changing the design so he could use a mortise 50mm or less!

    Someone earlier in this thread mentioned about the finished product being the prime objective. This is fair enough but when you limit yourself to power tools and waste time trying to find a power tool solution your final product might be compromised.

    I know of some highly respected woodworkers who design their pieces and then make their own planes and other tools to complete their design. Most of their tools both hand and power they have made themselves. I admire their enthusiasm and skills.

    I wimp out and buy my tools but perhaps one day when I have a design that can't be made using currently available tools I will give it a go.

    - Wood Borer

  15. #14
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    Default

    Wood Borer,

    No offence taken.

    I cannot believe that student could not comprehend cutting the mortice by hand - what are they (not) teaching! I suppose the 50mm tenon was for a chair as well. Before I got my chisel mortiser (get one you'll love it), deep mortises were done by drilling out most of the waste and then hand chiselling. Not quick or that much fun (when you stuff it up at 95% completed). Ah well.

    Not that I am any expert by any stroke of the imagination. Educated in woodwork mainly by myself and observing/helping my Grandfather when I was young.

    I don't let myself ever be limited by what my toys can do. If I have a problem, what I do (alot) is think about it and, if it is something I will need to do a lot of, make a jig/machine to help accomplish my goal. My Sliding Wall Saw comes to mind.
    (see http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com...1829#post21829 - pics on next page)

    This was originally made to increase the accuracy, speed and end result when cutting up laminated MDF for the internals of some built-in wardrobes for out house. Since then, this thing cuts up all my sheet material, trims/squares tables tops, + +. And was worth the effort/time to make.

    My point is, you don't have to be a top notch craftsman to make/adapt tools, you just need to think a bit and spend a bit of time which will be paid back in the quality and speed of your work (play).

    Cheers,

    Wayne

    BTW IVF gave us our beautiful youngest son now 15 months old.
    Wayne
    ______________________________________________
    "I'd be delighted to offer any advice I have on understanding women.
    When I have some, I'll let you know."
    Picard

    * New Website - Updates Coming Soon *
    http://wayneswoodwork.davyfamily.com/

  16. #15
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    Default The End is Near?

    There is a theory called Evolution which attempts to explain the change of plants and animals on planet earth. (This theory is not not accepted by everyone).

    If you watch nature type programs you will have noticed presenters like David Attenborough getting excited about watching the more intellgent animals use "tools". In fact they go on to draw parallels between tool use and intelligence.

    As mankind has progressed, his use of tools has increased and the tools have become more complex. People who study such subjects indicate that development of tools and development of mankind go hand in hand.

    In recent years, there has been a decline of tool use by mankind in the Western World. For example, how many people fix the washers in their taps, replace fuses, work on cars .... do woodwork compared with 40 - 50 years ago.

    Decline in the use of tools, are we declining as a race?

    I mainly use hand tools and I hope this argument can't be used against me! Perhaps this argument could be used against people who don't use "high tech" materials?

    Wayne, your daughter is the same age as our grand daughter.

    Derek, what have you started? Tools, IVF, Evolution of man .... is this getting away from woodwork?

    Apologies in advance to people who have no time for the theory of evolution and also to those who don't use tools and are about to become extinct.

    - Wood Borer

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