Thread: chain cutters rakers etc

Originally Posted by pjt

Yep that's the cutout I was about, it looked a whole lot more complicated than it really is thanks Bob, I don't mind u using my pics, glad they r good enuff and of use, unless a pic has somesort of reuse restriction on it if it's on the net it's there for all to use.

Thanks. I find your photos are well composed, sharp, and with good contrast so I don't even have to reprocess them. Some people just seem to have a knack others can even take courses in photography and still can take a photo to save themselves.

Originally Posted by Travis Edwards

basically if it works do it, if it doesn't try something different.

Yep I agree but it amazes me how so few people do this with chain saws. 9 out of 10 chain saws people bring me to look at have used chains with rakers that too high. When I ask them how they set their rakers they all use the standard fixed height raker gauge and have been doing that for years. Some even say - I sharpen and sharpen but it seems to go blunt quicker than ever. When I file their cutters and set their rakers for them in a progressive manner they are blown away by the improvement - like wow - less dust and more chips. Most of the so called reputable CS and CS chain companies are no help either as they clearly state 25'" in their manuals to cover their OHS behinds and most users stick to it. It is also NOT in these companies interest for users to to learn how to sharpen a chain but for users to buy new chains.

Not all the old timers had it right either, which shows they did not understand CS cutting geometry. Even a guru like Will Malloff of "Chainsaw Lumber Making" fame published a fixed raker height. My old man who was one of the first CS fallers in WA used a fixed raker gauge for the first few mm of cutter length and then just used to file the rakers until the saw made chips again, but neither he or his mates really knew why this worked or how much to file it down.

Personally i do not and have never used a file guide for any chain I have sharpened and do not use a file guide for rakers at all (granted I have used digital verniers from time to time, to fix badly out of whack chains,) but I have a very finely trained eye, from doing it so many times, I can pick a top plate a degree or two out and file at pretty much any desired angle to within a few minutes of a degree from cutter to cutter.

This is something that takes training and practice and thankfully my eyes are good enough to do it at the moment, have no Idea if I will still be able to in another 15 or 20 years though. People say it is quicker to grind a chain sharp I say this is a load of BS and I have proven that I can file one sharp faster and more accurately and have it cut faster and longer than their ground chains on uncountable numbers of occasions. I have even had old "fellers" who have had me sharpen their chain and turn around and say "I wish I could have sharpened em like that when I was felling"

but any way the point is when you know what you are looking for you can see it a mile off when you are learning or do not do it often it could be jumping up and down screeming at you and you wouldn't see it.

As I said try different things and treat what you are told to be an "optimum" as a starting place and find what works for you. DON"T BE AFRAID you can always buy a new chain or restore it to original specs.

Travis, I would agree with the point u r making re judging an angle by eye and filing completely freehand, but to within a couple of minutes, I doubt it, that is bold statement to make, that's 2/60ths of 1° and across a cutter width of 5 or so mm.... thats a poofteenth of a poofteenth.
Pete

Someone just posted this on the arboristsite;

". . . . . . .I have so many chains laying around for each of my saws cause i just got a new one every time they went dull and i would really like to use those chains for their full life."

And just to round things off, here's a vid of me setting rakers with a DAF;

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSr9j2EDoqk"]YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.[/ame]

Sorry about the squeaky file - my good ones are at the milling yard.

The first reading is the zero reading, the rest are raker readings.
The 6º angle being used translates to a raker setting of around 0.040" for that length cutter.

I don't do this every time I touch up the rakers. I touch up the cutters (2-3 strokes) after about every big slab, whereas I free hand the rakers (~2 strokes) after every 3-4 touch ups. I reset the rakers using the DAF off the mill after every 2-3 days of milling when I swap out the chain and flip the bar.

Originally Posted by BobL

Someone just posted this on the arboristsite;

". . . . . . .I have so many chains laying around for each of my saws cause i just got a new one every time they went dull and i would really like to use those chains for their full life."

Holy Heck some folkes have too much money

Originally Posted by Sigidi

Holy Heck some folkes have too much money

It gets worse, the turn over on used saws is much greater than here in Oz, there are instances of where people with way more money than brains buy a chainsaw, run it until it goes blunt and then go back and try to get a refund or even trade it in on a bigger one

Originally Posted by pjt

Travis, I would agree with the point u r making re judging an angle by eye and filing completely freehand, but to within a couple of minutes, I doubt it, that is bold statement to make, that's 2/60ths of 1° and across a cutter width of 5 or so mm.... thats a poofteenth of a poofteenth.
Pete

I was talking figuratively pete but you get the Idea. If i am filing in a vice I basically create index points on my vice with my thumb or a finger and you match the swarf trail angle from tooth to tooth I actually have a saw rise that I use for filing handsaws as well which I use also for my chainsaws and this has reference file marks in it from all of the handsaws I have sharpened so even though I am not using a file plate or guage I do have reference points to go off of. When filing on the saw I can get fairly close but not as close as when I am set up in a rise or vice there are just too many variables on the bar and the chain is not held as rigidly. But I can still file sharpen as accurately and quicker than is possible with an indexing pushfinger type grinder (ie oregon or one of the others you see around. I do actually have a grinder and since I bought it I have only used it twice, once to sharpen a chain and see if it worked, and once when I made my granberg style chain. had it about 3 years...lol

Originally Posted by BobL

It gets worse, the turn over on used saws is much greater than here in Oz, there are instances of where people with way more money than brains buy a chainsaw, run it until it goes blunt and then go back and try to get a refund or even trade it in on a bigger one

I would like to come across some of those saws, although maybe not, I met a guy who did a similar thing had a nice 034 or 036 cant remember which now and came out to the place I was working on to cut some firewood. any way I was out doing what I was doing and could hear this saw screaming like it was being murdered any how when I finished doing what I was doing I meandered over to where The din was coming from. The guy was cutting up fallen branches and small dead trees in a bit of a gully on the side of a hill, now this hill is basically built of solid rock and there is quite a bit jasper around (like what they use for sandpaper but most of it was rocks the size of your fist with a little bit of red sand between the rocks.) any way I observed what he was doing for about 5 minutes or so before I had to yell at him to get his attention. what he was doing was picking out the log he wanted to cut, laying it on the rocks, then he would get on his knees so that He could get enough down force to make the saw cut through a half rotten bit of wood about 4 or 5 inches thick. The bar was smoking the wood was smoking and the poor little stihl was screaming from all of the sand and gravel it was eating. any how I stopped him doing what he was doing because everything was tinder dry around and the nearest fire fighter I had access to would have been a 20 minute ride each way on the quad and then I would have had to find a vehicle to tow it etc. I asked him why he was having a hard time and suggested it might be time he sharpened his saw, to which he replied "oh no this is a new chain, I have only cut 4 trailer loads with it" I didn't know whether to laugh or cry at this stage imagining him laying the poor little stihl into a diet of rocks sand and occasionally a bit of rotten gum. Any how after chatting to him for a few minutes i got out of him that he had a file on board, and convinced him I should have a go at touching up his saw for him, WELL out comes his file and seriously it had less teeth left on it than a toothless hillbilly, and looked like it had enjoyed the same diet as his saw, Any way I had a look at the chain on his saw and the file he handed me and said to him "mate have you got a spare chain?" to which he replied "oh only the first one I got with the saw.... That lasted for about 6 months and then I got this one but I thought I should keep it for a spare"

Well I didnt hve to look at the "spare" chain but I quite politely told him not to come back until he went and got a new chain and explained why and that I would show him how to maintain a chain, and give him a few pointers on how he should cut when he came back. well the next day arrived and he showed up about 10 am, He wouldn't leave my side until about 7 pm, rocked up a couple of days later with a carton of beer and pestered me everytime he wanted to cut some firewood from that day on.

SOME TOOLS JUST SHOULDN"T HAVE SAWS....LMAO

Originally Posted by Travis Edwards

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Any way I had a look at the chain on his saw and the file he handed me and said to him "mate have you got a spare chain?" to which he replied "oh only the first one I got with the saw.... That lasted for about 6 months and then I got this one but I thought I should keep it for a spare"

Love it !

i got a 032av for $200. still had origional chain bar and sprocket. i ondt think it had been sharpend ever.

good buy i thaught its a fantactic saw love it.

Originally Posted by BobL

Love it !

That IS a TRUE story Bob, and if it wasn't so true I think I would laugh a lot harder than I do about it. It was really rather sad, He took a nice saw and stuffed it.

Originally Posted by weisyboy

i got a 032av for $200. still had origional chain bar and sprocket. i ondt think it had been sharpend ever.

good buy i thaught its a fantactic saw love it.

If it was an 076 or an 090 I might think about it Carl !!! blood stains and all...lol

Originally Posted by Travis Edwards

I was talking figuratively pete but you get the Idea. If i am filing in a vice I basically create index points on my vice with my thumb or a finger and you match the swarf trail angle from tooth to tooth I actually have a saw rise that I use for filing handsaws as well which I use also for my chainsaws and this has reference file marks in it from all of the handsaws I have sharpened so even though I am not using a file plate or guage I do have reference points to go off of. When filing on the saw I can get fairly close but not as close as when I am set up in a rise or vice there are just too many variables on the bar and the chain is not held as rigidly. But I can still file sharpen as accurately and quicker than is possible with an indexing pushfinger type grinder (ie oregon or one of the others you see around. I do actually have a grinder and since I bought it I have only used it twice, once to sharpen a chain and see if it worked, and once when I made my granberg style chain. had it about 3 years...lol

No worries Travis, I can go with all that

Originally Posted by Travis Edwards

That IS a TRUE story Bob, and if it wasn't so true I think I would laugh a lot harder than I do about it. It was really rather sad, He took a nice saw and stuffed it.

Not quite in the same vein but similar, a few years back a fella I know brought around a near new looking Stihl 009 that he couldn't start. I said how many times have you used this and he said about a dozen times - I reckon it was maybe once or twice. I emptied out the old mix which had become very sticky and the plug was caked in black gunk. I cleaned the plug, put some fresh raw petrol in the tank and swished it around a few times, threw that out and filled it with fresh mix and it started after about 6 pulls. He looked at me a said. How would you like to keep the saw and I come and get it just when I need it - not long after that he bought a gas heater and he has never needed the saw.