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  1. #1
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    Default Dealing with Oak logs and limbs

    We have three oak trees that were removed from the streets this week by our shire. Pin Oak, English oak and I think Algerian oak. We have a bandsaw mill to saw the logs into boards which I plan to stick and air dry. There are a number of large limbs that I have started chain sawing into lengths, halving for bowl blanks and sealing the ends. I believe the oak sapwood is liked by lyctus borer and wood like to treat the wood with borax. Does anyone have any suggestions how I go about this?
    Will the oak keep OK if I leave the bark on and let it dry in the round?
    Finally anyone keen to try some green oak and would like to come and collect some limbs we have more than we need.

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  3. #2
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    Borax works fine to keep borers and other insect pests out of sawn wood, but its not a particularly convenient or effective way to hold them out of logs pre sawing.

    For logs you've got basicly two strategies, depending on how long you expect to have to hold them pre sawing and how likely it is to rain. In either case you want to store logs off ground - ie on other logs. From there its about using an insecticide, which could well be Borax. Go big green shed or hardware and get yourself a bottle of something that will kill termites and mix it and spray over the log pile. If it kills termites it kills borers. If you're worried about rain washing that off because its water soluble... forget the insecticide and spray them with diesel instead. Problem solved, though you might want to think about where you're holding them because you're going to get a big dead patch on the lawn going that way.

    Treating with borax is... look theres a difference between putting borax IN the wood for effective long term protection from a whole heap of decay organisims and putting borax ON the wood to keep them out. Borax ON the wood will stop borer and other infestations but if the wood gets wet it washes off, or if you plane or resaw it your remove that barrier layer.

    Getting it ON is as simple as buying borax, mixing it with water until you cant get anymore to dissolve in the water, and spraying it on the wood or putting it in a trough and dipping the wood into the solution... so that its completely wet, then stripping it out to dry. It's that easy.

    Getting it IN can be done at home with limited equipment but its a bit more complicated as a process. I can talk you through it if interested.... its not complex it just takes some time/effort/ double handling of the timber.... but unless someone wants to know the process I dont feel like spending half an hour typing it out. If someone does Im happy enough to do so... Borax treatment is one of the best timber preservatives known to man, certainly it beats the hell out of a lot of the modern chemicals but.... theres more profit for the chemical companies who also sell the pressure treatment plants in pushing other reagents. Its business. *shrug*

  4. #3
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    When it comes to Oak, it's not just the sap wood that gets attacked. You need to get it treated ASAP. John's suggestions are the way to go. One thing I would add... If you are going to cut the logs to timber with a band mill it would be a good idea to add borax to the lube water so it is going on during sawing.

  5. #4
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    As John says, but use Boron rather than Borax. Boron is the main component that Borax is made out of, but with other stuff. Borax dissolves in hot water but recrystallises as the water cools stuffing any spray equipment you may have used. Boron on the other hand dissolves in cold water and stays dissolved. The huge difference is the cost, Boron is up to 20x Borax (makes sense considering Borax is only ~5% Boron), and getting hold of Boron is getting harder. Bunnings does sell a Boron nowadays, but it is not pure Boron, but some sort of diluted form and I'm not sure of the difference with Borax as I haven't risked my spray equipment with it.
    Neil
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  6. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by dai sensei View Post
    As John says, but use Boron rather than Borax. Boron is the main component that Borax is made out of, but with other stuff. Borax dissolves in hot water but recrystallises as the water cools stuffing any spray equipment you may have used. Boron on the other hand dissolves in cold water and stays dissolved. The huge difference is the cost, Boron is up to 20x Borax (makes sense considering Borax is only ~5% Boron), and getting hold of Boron is getting harder. Bunnings does sell a Boron nowadays, but it is not pure Boron, but some sort of diluted form and I'm not sure of the difference with Borax as I haven't risked my spray equipment with it.
    The "soluble boron" sold by bunnings is the same as Borax (Na2[B4O5(OH)4]·8H2O). Bunnings boron is juts borax sold as a dilute liquid.
    Boric acid (H3BO3) contains more boron per gram than borax if you want increased potency.

  7. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    The "soluble boron" sold by bunnings is the same as Borax (Na2[B4O5(OH)4]·8H2O). Bunnings boron is juts borax sold as a dilute liquid.
    Boric acid (H3BO3) contains more boron per gram than borax if you want increased potency.
    Spot on Bob!

    Bit of good chemistry as a reminder never hurt anyone.
    I was wondering what Neil was talking about with "Boron" (the element). Boric acid is what I assumed he meant and its pretty innocuous to use tho dearer than borax.
    E

  8. #7
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    Borax is ~12% boron while boric acid is about 17% boron.
    Once dissolved in water they produce the same active ingredients as far as any pesticide is concerned.
    My understanding is borax will dissolved in cold water but boric acid powder needs warm water to get it to dissolve faster.

    Thanks to the hydroponics business widely using it as a pesticide, boric acid powder is actually pretty cheap.
    On ebay, hydroponics grade (ie relatively pure) boric is about $10/kg for 2 kg and about $5/kg if you buy 25kg, these prices include delivery
    If you can find a local supplier you can get it for even less.
    Lower purity boric is often not that much cheaper.

  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Euge View Post
    ...I was wondering what Neil was talking about with "Boron" (the element). Boric acid is what I assumed he meant and its pretty innocuous to use tho dearer than borax.
    E
    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    Borax is ~12% boron while boric acid is about 17% boron.
    Once dissolved in water they produce the same active ingredients as far as any pesticide is concerned.
    My understanding is borax will dissolved in cold water but boric acid powder needs warm water to get it to dissolve faster.

    Thanks to the hydroponics business widely using it as a pesticide, boric acid powder is actually pretty cheap.
    On ebay, hydroponics grade (ie relatively pure) boric is about $10/kg for 2 kg and about $5/kg if you buy 25kg, these prices include delivery
    If you can find a local supplier you can get it for even less.
    Lower purity boric is often not that much cheaper.
    I was put onto Boron powder by another Sunshine Coast miller years ago, he bought it in a powder form marked simply "boron powder" in a 20kg drum and used ~1kg per 20 litres of water. I got it from farmer chemical suppliers that sold it for a natural pesticide (used in tractor sprayers and airplanes) but used at a far more diluted form than for wood. I used to be able to get 0.5kg packs for $6 but more recently the same pack went to $24 then not available at all (in small quantities). The last time I asked you could still get the 20kg drums but at $400 and they told me it was going to double back then soon.

    Was it Boric Acid, yeh good question, all I know is one stuffs your sprayers (i.e. Borax) and one doesn't. When using Borax I dissolved a kg in a 5 litre bucket of hot water and then use a watering can at the end of milling. Using Borax doesn't seem to last as long either but perhaps I'm not using enough. The old miller I knew (now retired and moved up FNQ) used to use a large scoop of the Boron Powder in his Lucas water tank and hence applies as the timber was milled. He also said if you use Borax you should keep mixing until it no longer dissolves (i.e. highly concentrated) but also warned of its crystallisation potential.
    Neil
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  10. #9
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    ahhhhhh yeah its more complex then that guys.

    Its about how the borate in its chemical matrix attaches to the water molecule. I dont know the details at that level just the answer.

    "For maximum concentration of soluble boron in water the correct mix is 60 % Disodium tetraborate decahydrate (borax) to 40% boric acid, with %'s measured by weight."
    That is the answer! So 600 grams borax to 400 grams of boric acid.

    Boric acid as a spray is pretty dammed useless because it doesnt adhere particularly well to the wood. It really only becomes useful when you start chasing diffusion which you will not achieve just by spraying it on. And IMHo if you put it in your mill water you'll get enough on the wood to make you feel better but not enough to actually be useful. Most of what you apply that way will go straight off with the sawdust.... been there done that.

    If you're only going to use one use Borax.

    Prices are..... Borax $69.90 per 25kg bag, Boric Acid $56.20 per 25 kg bag. Prices incl GST. That was straight out of my local ag supply place last week. I could knock that down a fair bit if I bought it by the ton but we dont use the hot dip much anymore and it goes lumpy in the bags if I hold it too long.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  11. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by John.G View Post
    ahhhhhh yeah its more complex then that guys.

    Its about how the borate in its chemical matrix attaches to the water molecule. I dont know the details at that level just the answer.

    "For maximum concentration of soluble boron in water the correct mix is 60 % Disodium tetraborate decahydrate (borax) to 40% boric acid, with %'s measured by weight."
    That is the answer! So 600 grams borax to 400 grams of boric acid.

    Boric acid as a spray is pretty dammed useless because it doesnt adhere particularly well to the wood. It really only becomes useful when you start chasing diffusion which you will not achieve just by spraying it on.

    If you're only going to use one use Borax.

    Prices are..... Borax $69.90 per 25kg bag, Boric Acid $56.20 per 25 kg bag. Prices incl GST. That was straight out of my local ag supply place last week. I could knock that down a fair bit if I bought it by the ton but we dont use the hot dip much anymore and it goes lumpy in the bags if I hold it too long.
    When using a sprayer I was soaking the timber, not just a surface coating. As I said above, not sure what I was using, it was just labeled Boron Powder. It dissolved instantly in cold water and stayed that way. When using Borax and soaking the timber, after it has dried you can see the crystals foamed on top, likewise unfortunately in your spray equipment (I've seen many a small sprayer stuffed with it).

    So does your above mix dissolve and stay dissolved in cold water? How are you applying it?
    Neil
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  12. #11
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    Here's one I found on good old Google https://www.platinumchemicals.co.uk/...-borotreat-10p but sounds pretty close to what I used to use
    Neil
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  13. #12
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    Okay.
    Borax (disodium octoborate) has a texture like flour... its a "fluffy" kind of a stuff. Borax dissolves pretty easy, or lays on the bottom of the tank in a big lump of snot.
    Boric Acid is crystalline - similar texture to caster sugar. It tends to hang in suspension when mixing and the water will get a sudsy kind of scum on top for a while.

    Either way they will clog your spray lines if the line dries out. When you're done with it just run fresh water through to flush them clean and you wont have a problem.

    (How to explain this) When you spray with borates - and you've got it dead set correct you need the wood surface completely wet for it to work correctly - and you get the crystalline stuff on the outside.... thats borates ON wood, not borates IN wood ok. A little bit might diffuse in but when you dress your timber off in 2 years time you arent smelling borates 5mm under the surface right?

    Next thing I'm going to say is you dont need it that strong. Diffusion through the wood (ie gettting it IN the wood) requires the wood surface to remain wet.When you're just spraying it on and stripping out to dry it wont stay wet enough long enough for that to happen. So you can dilute it out a bit with no ill effect to the barrier layer on the outside and you wont get half the problems with clogged spray nozzles. The usual strength is about a 20% solution: so if you stir borax into a litre of hot water until it wont dissolve any more borax you can mix that with 4 liters of straight water and you'll be on the money. Having said that I've never done it that way in my life. I throw two scoops of one and a scoop of the other per 10l when overspraying and that'll be good enough.

    I overspray (to well wet) pretty much everything with borates... even stuff thats going to pressure treatment because it keeps the bastards out between sawing and treating, and its cheap and eco friendly and it works, and sometimes things dont get to treatment here as promptly as I'd like.
    I also still do borate treatment on some timbers, rather then just the barrier layer spray application. For internal appearance type stuff - be it handrails, mouldings, or furniture timbers - it's still the best treatment out there... and thats simply because unlike pressure treatment that only does that outside skin of wood done right you can treat well into the wood. Thats part of why heirloom furniture got that old... way back when it was the normal treatment system, and you can still smell borate on some of it if you start planing away. Thing with borate treatment is that its not a particularly fast process - depending on the method we're talking days or weeks not just a 90 minute cycle for pressure treatment - and it will leach out if the wood is wet again and again so not suitable for exposed applications. But I tell ya... thats why my white timbers are white not salt and pepper like everyone elses.

  14. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by dai sensei View Post
    Here's one I found on good old Google https://www.platinumchemicals.co.uk/...-borotreat-10p but sounds pretty close to what I used to use
    Yah its straight up borax, we charge you more because we put it in a small bag in a woodworkers shop.

    You can get a stuff called "Timbor". Its a premix of borax and boric acid but same thing... its about packaging and marketing. Boric acid is boric acid, and disodium octoborate tetrahydrate is borax.

  15. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by John.G View Post
    Yah its straight up borax, we charge you more because we put it in a small bag in a woodworkers shop.

    You can get a stuff called "Timbor". Its a premix of borax and boric acid but same thing... its about packaging and marketing. Boric acid is boric acid, and disodium octoborate tetrahydrate is borax.
    You are probably on the money regarding they are all borates and require soaking for the effective protection.

    Having said that, they may all be borates, but they are not the same. I was comparing the store bought Borax (from supermarket/hardware), that is a sodium tetraborate, with a product I know as Boron that I believe to be disodium octoborate tetrahydrate (in the above product linked anyway) that are not the same and has a much higher concentration of Boron.

    Borax breaks down to Boric Acid plus other gunk, so I guess by adding more Boric Acid (as you suggested) your are increasing the amount of Boron, perhaps making the other stuff I'm talking about (I'm not a chemist) maybe??

    As for spraying with Borax (from the supermarket/hardware), the sprayers clog up whilst spraying (not after), and once clogged they couldn't be cleaned (needing new tubes and tips). When using Borax I use the watering can, but with the other stuff, it was fine in the spray equipment.
    Neil
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  16. #15
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    Will the oak keep OK if I leave the bark on and let it dry in the round?
    - No, oak is probably the most horrible thing to dry in the round, it just splits and splits. Halved and end sealed is the only way and better still split and quartered.

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