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  1. #1
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    Default Lucas Mill - Some questions for experienced operators.

    I have a 6-18 mill and have been milling some poplar logs, the initial 2 were only 2.5 & 3 mfrs in length and cut well, I love working on my own and the physical aspects of what I've been doing.

    What's left
    IMG_1032.jpg

    on the trailer - the mill fits on this trailer, frame at the front keeps the rails above the back of the holden
    IMG_1033.jpg

    I moved from the above onto a 6mtr log, the log had been positioned by a digger before setting up, the ground was somewhat soft and is peat, water table is quite high at present.

    Now I know when some of you look at this you will immediately identify some issues, and perhaps make some "jesus" type sounds. I will accept all comments and constructive criticism with humble respect, for I understand the basic theory of how the mill works but do not have the experience of operation to be able to identify immediately causation, thus my trouble shooting is based purely on reasoning and guesswork.

    IMG_1034.jpg IMG_1036.jpg

    The vertical cuts were relatively easy, started with 60mm deep 160mm wide and transited to 160mm deep by 60mm wide but the horizontal was hard work. I was cutting the vertical first to make loading out easier. I copied out the setup from the manual, adjusted the rake of the blade - side to side and front to back, looking form the thatch pattern, but still found it would "bind" as I worked across the log, making the horizontal cut very hard to push through, even just the 60mm cut. I adjusted the vertical depth as well but still had the over cutting. Placed timber under the end posts to spread the load but this didn't make any difference. I have come to the conclusion that the ground is just to soft and not supporting the weight of the mill making it "rock" from end to end causing the binding, as I mentioned the log was about 6mtrs, and thus the vertical supports were about as far apart as they can be.


    Finally I have been looking at the trolley wheels and wonder how to determine the amount of wear, I would appreciate your comments on this as well.

    IMG_1039.jpgIMG_1040.jpgIMG_1041.jpgIMG_1042.jpg

    Finally I read a lot here, don't post much as I don't have a lot to contribute, but appreciate the amount of information provided by those that have the "experience"

    regards
    phill - northland NZ

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  3. #2
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by phill-nz View Post
    I have a 6-18 mill and have been milling some poplar logs, the initial 2 were only 2.5 & 3 mfrs in length and cut well, I love working on my own and the physical aspects of what I've been doing.

    What's left
    IMG_1032.jpg

    on the trailer - the mill fits on this trailer, frame at the front keeps the rails above the back of the holden
    IMG_1033.jpg

    I moved from the above onto a 6mtr log, the log had been positioned by a digger before setting up, the ground was somewhat soft and is peat, water table is quite high at present.

    Now I know when some of you look at this you will immediately identify some issues, and perhaps make some "jesus" type sounds. I will accept all comments and constructive criticism with humble respect, for I understand the basic theory of how the mill works but do not have the experience of operation to be able to identify immediately causation, thus my trouble shooting is based purely on reasoning and guesswork.

    IMG_1034.jpg IMG_1036.jpg

    The vertical cuts were relatively easy, started with 60mm deep 160mm wide and transited to 160mm deep by 60mm wide but the horizontal was hard work. I was cutting the vertical first to make loading out easier. I copied out the setup from the manual, adjusted the rake of the blade - side to side and front to back, looking form the thatch pattern, but still found it would "bind" as I worked across the log, making the horizontal cut very hard to push through, even just the 60mm cut. I adjusted the vertical depth as well but still had the over cutting. Placed timber under the end posts to spread the load but this didn't make any difference. I have come to the conclusion that the ground is just to soft and not supporting the weight of the mill making it "rock" from end to end causing the binding, as I mentioned the log was about 6mtrs, and thus the vertical supports were about as far apart as they can be.


    Finally I have been looking at the trolley wheels and wonder how to determine the amount of wear, I would appreciate your comments on this as well.

    IMG_1039.jpgIMG_1040.jpgIMG_1041.jpgIMG_1042.jpg

    Finally I read a lot here, don't post much as I don't have a lot to contribute, but appreciate the amount of information provided by those that have the "experience"

    regards
    phill - northland NZ
    My advice is for you to contact LUCAS MILL staff directly and allow them to deal with your questions...and ONLY them.That's what they are there for ...MM
    Mapleman

  4. #3
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    Jan 2013
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    Default

    Okay so heres some things to look at:

    Make sure that the rails are parallel with the mill in the middle of the rails. Note that they don't have to be parallel to the log or ground but to cut properly they do need to be parallel with each other. If required shim a corner up till they are, then shift the mill to one end and check again, then the other end and check again. If the ground is soft underfoot one corner might be sinking and rising as the mill travels back and forth which can throw your initial middle of rails check out. If the ground is really soft it doesnt hurt to check that every so often in case one corner starts sinking.

    Check that the blade is sharp. If in doubt change blades to one you know is cutting well. 99 % of not cutting straight issues are either mill setup or blade problems. When you change blades reset all the blade alignments to the settings they were on previously. I'm hoping you wrote down whatever adjustments you made because it is extremely unlikely to be an alignment issue and you'll most likely have to change back to the zero point.

    With all that done and if theres still an issue chances are the issue is log tension. As you're cutting it the log is bowing up in the middle as the tension balance shifts from even to one sided. This isn't so much an issue in shorter lengths because the tension has less length of log to put a bow into. Usually with log tension you'll see the vertical cuts going to the right depth... but the blade is taking the easy way out in the horizontal. The first cut or two from the side in the horizontal plane meet the vertical ones but as you move further across the log and it bows more the vertical cuts appear deeper. The blade will be following the horizontal cut surface because its the path of least resistance. The vertical grooves often tend to be deeper in the middle then the ends, or deeper one end then the other depending on individual logs. All you can really do is bring the blade in from the side again and cut dead slow so it cuts the tension "hump" out of it. This will make your boards oversize in the middle necessitating resawing but thats the name of the game.

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
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    Dismal Swamp.South Aus
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    Default

    I think the info John gave will be very helpful. If you're new to the mill it would also be (as Mapleman said) contact Lucasmill. They back up their product and are very helpful. They helped me out a few times even though I bought a second hand machine privately. Now that's service!
    Tim.

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Northland NZ
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    Default

    Thanks for your comments John, I'm feeling at present that it is a combination of both tension in the log, and perhaps a "rocking" movement in the frame due to the soft ground.

    We have a period of rain now, but when it moves through I'll setup again on a different log with a new blade, and add the results to the personal experience file.

    Quote Originally Posted by John.G View Post
    Okay so heres some things to look at:

    Make sure that the rails are parallel with the mill in the middle of the rails. Note that they don't have to be parallel to the log or ground but to cut properly they do need to be parallel with each other. If required shim a corner up till they are, then shift the mill to one end and check again, then the other end and check again. If the ground is soft underfoot one corner might be sinking and rising as the mill travels back and forth which can throw your initial middle of rails check out. If the ground is really soft it doesnt hurt to check that every so often in case one corner starts sinking.

    Check that the blade is sharp. If in doubt change blades to one you know is cutting well. 99 % of not cutting straight issues are either mill setup or blade problems. When you change blades reset all the blade alignments to the settings they were on previously. I'm hoping you wrote down whatever adjustments you made because it is extremely unlikely to be an alignment issue and you'll most likely have to change back to the zero point.

    With all that done and if theres still an issue chances are the issue is log tension. As you're cutting it the log is bowing up in the middle as the tension balance shifts from even to one sided. This isn't so much an issue in shorter lengths because the tension has less length of log to put a bow into. Usually with log tension you'll see the vertical cuts going to the right depth... but the blade is taking the easy way out in the horizontal. The first cut or two from the side in the horizontal plane meet the vertical ones but as you move further across the log and it bows more the vertical cuts appear deeper. The blade will be following the horizontal cut surface because its the path of least resistance. The vertical grooves often tend to be deeper in the middle then the ends, or deeper one end then the other depending on individual logs. All you can really do is bring the blade in from the side again and cut dead slow so it cuts the tension "hump" out of it. This will make your boards oversize in the middle necessitating resawing but thats the name of the game.

  7. #6
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    Feb 2013
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    Northland NZ
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    Default

    Thanks for your suggestion MM, I did email Lucas and ask about the trolley wheels and possible wear, but am quite sure the issues are operator based and not an issue with the mill it's self.

    I'm going to setup on another log in a different area and see what happens, the manual with the saw gives very clear instructions on correctly setting up the "cut" and with Johns comments below confirming what I was thinking I'm sure I'm on the right track.

    thanks
    phill

    Quote Originally Posted by MAPLEMAN View Post
    My advice is for you to contact LUCAS MILL staff directly and allow them to deal with your questions...and ONLY them.That's what they are there for ...MM

  8. #7
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    Jun 2003
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    Phil, you'll find over time, long logs bring their own issues to the fore.

    On trolley wheels, I used to chuck them every 12 months, but of late have realised that isn't as good a schedule as it could be,so now have been tossing them every 200 hours. Easiest way is to check them just before you put the powerhead onto the rails (so there isn't any 'weight' on them) - hold them between thumb and forefinger at the 12 o'clock and 6 o'clock position and try and 'rock' them in and out from the carriage to check what play there is between bearing and wheel. If its 'tight' keep 'em, if it wobbles around, order a new bunch and replace them as soon as practical. If there is a bit of play, you can still cut with them, but be mindful they will need replacing. Another thing to get in the habit of doing, is visually check the seating of the circlip inside the rollers each day. This has been my single most reason for early replacement of rollers...sometimes less than two weeks between sets of rollers

    Looking at your fourth pic - the orientation of your saw marks in the horizontal tell a story.

    https://www.woodworkforums.com/attach...hmentid=317754

    you see how the sawmarks go from 3 o'clock to 9 o'clock? This indicates a problem in the horizontal cut. If they are like this along the whole length of the log - it isn't the log humping. Log humping would exhibit these marks a foot or two in from each end - remedy, come out of the log, leave the rails where they are and 're-surface' the log, starting from left hand edge of log.

    Damn, sorry Phil, gotta go to make sawdust.....more to follow this evening....
    I love my Lucas!! ...just ask me!
    Allan.

  9. #8
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    Feb 2013
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    Northland NZ
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    Default Lucas Saw Mills support - Bloody Brilliant

    Thanks Allan

    Once this weather goes through I'll start the setup again with a new blade and see what happens.

    This morning I had a call from Dudley at Lucas Saw Mills, Bloody Brilliant, now that's a company with a focus on customer support, and Brand Promotion. That will always pay dividends for them and reflects an organisation that cares about its product and customers. I had only asked a query about checking the trolley wheels, and they ring up for a chat.

    phill

  10. #9
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    Dudley is a legend - you will pick up a lot if you use ya ears and mouth in the ratio you where given - 2:1

    Sorry about the short reply this morning, had to head off and make sawdust....

    so as I was saying, if those sawmarks appear part way along the log, toward the middle of the log, then its log tension. If they appear the full length of the log a few things could be the issue;
    • Check your teeth on the saw blade, especially the right hand corner of the tooth (when looking at the back of the tooth) make sure they are all nice sharp, solid corners. On previous experience you can get away with some small chips, but if all of them are knocked about the horizontal cuts will be bad. This will also play up in vertical cuts and pull 'off' the line of your cut, a new blade will fix it.
    • Another issue I've had has been blade tension - most sawdoctors say they can hammer - but they can't and they don't do a job worth paying for, this will show up in both horizontal and vertical cuts - you will hear your blade "screaming' while cutting. A new blade should fix it
    • Those marks along the full length of the log can also be coz the blade adjustment is set wrong and there is no 'lead' on the blade in the horizontal. Basically you need the right hand edge of the blade to be 1.5-2mm lower than the hub of the blade. This won't affect the vertical cuts, but if set wrong can also result in those vertical marks in the log surface, by the horizontal cut being 'higher' than it should the saw will 'bind' on the log surface (be hard to push through) and also 'overcut' the vertical cut. No new blade will fix this


    If the rails are set badly, or are sinking,this will show up more at one end of the log,not the full length of the log and not just in the middle of the log.

    I've tried to list what could be the problem and how you should be able to differentiate between them to figure out which one is most likely, I'm by no means an expert and its tough diagnosing stuff without seeing everything going on.

    Hope it helps
    I love my Lucas!! ...just ask me!
    Allan.

  11. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigidi View Post
    you will pick up a lot if you use ya ears and mouth in the ratio you where given - 2:1
    Now there is some well founded advice, just wish I had considered this when a youngster!

    I've got some good pointers, and will now go back (when the rain gives up) and start afresh with a new blade, and check and all the blade positioning settings, I'll follow up with some pictures at that time, looks like its going to be about a week or so though.

    Again thanks for taking the time to respond it appreciated.

    phill

  12. #11
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    Nov 2011
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    Default Milling problem

    Hi Phil. I agree with all the comments so far - some wise heads helping you out. One other possibility is something that has happened to me a few times when I haven't been paying enough attention. If you don't completely swing the blade over so the swing lever is only partly catching on the catch bolt the vertical cut will be fractionally deeper than it should be according to the depth gauge. The cut of course will be slightly off plumb vertical so you can easily check if this happened by running a square over the last sticks you cut off that deck. It is probably not what has happened given what you have said about the blade binding on the horizontal cut, but it is worth checking.

    Regards, Timboz

  13. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by timboz View Post
    Hi Phil. I agree with all the comments so far - some wise heads helping you out. One other possibility is something that has happened to me a few times when I haven't been paying enough attention. If you don't completely swing the blade over so the swing lever is only partly catching on the catch bolt the vertical cut will be fractionally deeper than it should be according to the depth gauge. The cut of course will be slightly off plumb vertical so you can easily check if this happened by running a square over the last sticks you cut off that deck. It is probably not what has happened given what you have said about the blade binding on the horizontal cut, but it is worth checking.

    Regards, Timboz
    Timboz, good thing to have a look at too.
    This may happen for one cut or part of a cut, but successive cuts across the face of the log would be unlikely, also when in the top third of the log, when doing a shallow vertical, it may be easy to do, but when doing the middle third where the 'face' of the board is cut vertically and the edge of the board is cut horizontally as in Phils example, the cut gets significantly hard to pull as the blade 'rotates' in the vertical to the point where you can't run the full length of the log - don't ask me how I know....

    Its always bloody hard to nut out what is going awry without being onsite at the time - I take my hat off to the Lucas guys, they diagnose stuff over the phone easy as, all the time. One time I had a 'surging' motor using the 10-30 Carby model, took a sound recording of it using my mobile phone, emailed it to Lucas and Dudley range me back with the remedy - problem fixed and back to running like clockwork in 20 minutes, you just can't buy that kind of backup service
    I love my Lucas!! ...just ask me!
    Allan.

  14. #13
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    Default Cutting Issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigidi View Post
    Timboz, good thing to have a look at too.
    This may happen for one cut or part of a cut, but successive cuts across the face of the log would be unlikely, also when in the top third of the log, when doing a shallow vertical, it may be easy to do, but when doing the middle third where the 'face' of the board is cut vertically and the edge of the board is cut horizontally as in Phils example, the cut gets significantly hard to pull as the blade 'rotates' in the vertical to the point where you can't run the full length of the log - don't ask me how I know....

    Its always bloody hard to nut out what is going awry without being onsite at the time - I take my hat off to the Lucas guys, they diagnose stuff over the phone easy as, all the time. One time I had a 'surging' motor using the 10-30 Carby model, took a sound recording of it using my mobile phone, emailed it to Lucas and Dudley range me back with the remedy - problem fixed and back to running like clockwork in 20 minutes, you just can't buy that kind of backup service
    Hi Sigidi. I agree that it is unlikely to happen when cutting deep plunge cuts but it is a handy problem to have a heads up on if you are a newbie. It had me scratching my head for a while the first time I did it. That certainly is pretty impressive product back-up you related!

    How is the sawmill going? Haven't seen any posts for a while.

    Regards, Timboz

  15. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by timboz View Post
    Hi Sigidi. I agree that it is unlikely to happen when cutting deep plunge cuts but it is a handy problem to have a heads up on if you are a newbie. It had me scratching my head for a while the first time I did it. That certainly is pretty impressive product back-up you related!
    yeah very true mate, a couple times I've tried helping others out and went into things way too far, assuming they had things set up properly and it turned out the setup was the issue - that's why doin it over the computer or phone is so hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by timboz View Post
    How is the sawmill going? Haven't seen any posts for a while.

    Regards, Timboz

    Yeah, to be honest, I've been trying to get on here to post updates, but been getting server busy quite a bit and getting timed out while trying to load pics - I end up doing the updates on the American forum....
    I love my Lucas!! ...just ask me!
    Allan.

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