Thread: Milling advice

pm Me

Originally Posted by Bob Mc

Hi
I am new to this forum and after some advice, we have about 35 cypress macrocarpa, about 80 years old, on a farm in gippsland that need to be removed. A local tree feller has quoted to drop the trees and mill the good sections but wants to burn the rest. I am concerned that he will be very selective about what is mill able and we will finish up with a lot of timber going up in smoke. We are also considering buying a lucas mill and milling the timber, mostly to use but possibly selling some of it.
I have done a bit of woodwork but have no experience with milling.
Any suggestions or comments would be appreciated.
Thanks

Bob

Get yourself a Lucas BobMc..that way you mill them the way YOU want them to be milled..on your terms ,and save yourself bucket loads of money,given you have a reasonable volume to cut as well.May take you a while to figure the milling process out,but that's half the fun ..if you've got the cash to splash on a Lucas,i say go for it..MM

Originally Posted by MAPLEMAN

Get yourself a Lucas BobMc..that way you mill them the way YOU want them to be milled..on your terms ,and save yourself bucket loads of money,given you have a reasonable volume to cut as well.May take you a while to figure the milling process out,but that's half the fun ..if you've got the cash to splash on a Lucas,i say go for it..MM

And when you are finished, you can always offload your Lucas and get a very nice return on the initial purchase price - resale on a used Lucas is very strong, just ask anyone who has tried to buy one, they don't hang around long and price can be very close to initial purchase price depending on how well looked after it is.


AND welcome to the forum mate

Hi Bob

If you are at all worried about the purchase of a lucas mill, then contact Lucas directly and ask for a list of owners in your area.
I did this recently and spent a day with an owner. Very valuable experience.
Most owners are more then happy to show you the ropes, especially as you will be milling for yourself.

Just a thought.

Originally Posted by Bob Mc

Hi
I am new to this forum and after some advice, we have about 35 cypress macrocarpa, about 80 years old, on a farm in gippsland that need to be removed. A local tree feller has quoted to drop the trees and mill the good sections but wants to burn the rest. I am concerned that he will be very selective about what is mill able and we will finish up with a lot of timber going up in smoke. We are also considering buying a lucas mill and milling the timber, mostly to use but possibly selling some of it.
I have done a bit of woodwork but have no experience with milling.
Any suggestions or comments would be appreciated.
Thanks

Bob

You need to clarify - at least to yourself - what your goal is here.

35 trees isn't a lot of timber. It can be, but it's not likely to be: a lot of "plantation" timber isn't... it's just planted and left to fend for itself with no sivicultural practices employed resulting in low grade sawlogs. There's also a learning curve associated with learning to operate any mill, and thats going to chew up a few of them before you're even halfway competent. So you need to understand for yourself just how good your resource is in terms of what volume of wood you actually have, and what quality it is, and what value you might get from them.

You need to understand about recovery rates. A large percentage of each log disappears into sawdust, or edgings, or is heartwood, or grades out for whatever reason. The lower the grade of the log the higher the loss to those factors will be, and those lower grade logs also give a greater ratio of low value product to high value product... you get more pallet boards and less flooring for example.

It takes time to mill. Do you have that time available to you?

It costs money to mill. Can you carry the cost of buying a sawmill, and running it - including that time - and storing the timber until it's sold? A lot of that depends on how you value your time: if you're doing this for a hobby or in your spare time between jobs on the farm then your time is valued differently then someone who needs to mill profitably to eat.

How will you pull the logs out, handle sawn timber etc? Do you have machinery thats able to do that or are you going to have to buy/hire some in or can you just do it by hand?

Then we get to the issue of waste. What do you define as waste? As a commercial operator I often feel bad about the amount of waste we leave behind us... big crotches in particular. Then there's what we "waste" off the docking saw. My docking saw waste pile would meet the total demand of this website for boxmaking and pen blank timbers... but it's not worth the time it takes to salvage those bits: ie a commercial operator has to look at each piece of timber that could potentially be recovered and decide if it's going to cost less to recover it then it would be worth. Back to the issue of "how do you value your time" again. You need to understand that just because there's a piece of wood there, doesn't mean you have to take it - it might just cost you more to recover that bit then it's worth.

The way I see this you have four options:
· Buy a mill and do the lot yourself. Insert another gratuitous plug for Lucas Mill here – bang for your buck they’re hard to beat, however depending on your resource there are other options out there that may better meet your needs
· Sell the logs to a sawmiller, either fixed or portable. Probably the lowest dollar value for what you have, but then all you have to do is watch from a distance and bank the cheque afterwards too. They’ll take what they think is profitable to cut.
· Get your logs milled for you by a sawmiller. There are options there in terms of how you pay and what you pay for, and what equipment comes to do the job - and if you aren’t happy after the first few logs you can always go find someone else, or shift to an hourly rate to cover the costs of cutting what he regards as unviable.
· Take either of the previous two options and then get/hire gear to handle the “waste” yourself. If all you need to handle are small billets then there are a lot of cheaper options out there then if you need to handle the big pieces too. And that may be as little as a decent chainsaw and a firewood splitter. Don’t discount firewood as a way to salvage value from whats left, particularly that close to Melbourne.

What you need to do is find and talk to a couple of sawmillers about what you have there, including on site inspections. Get an idea of what they consider as worth their time, ask what they will take and what they will leave and why they will leave it. If the answer is “costs more to cut then it’s worth” you need to ask yourself if you can do better then this guy who makes his living at this. Sometimes you can – again it depends on how you value your time.

Whatever you choose I wish you well with your venture, and welcome to the forum

John G is right on the money here. The one thing he didn't mention is the difficulty drying Golden Cyprus. It is a notoriously difficult timber to season and produces a lot of reject material. Its one big claim to fame is white ants wont eat it.
To go to the expense of buying a mill with only 35 logs to mill seems a bit of a waste of money. Would be cheaper to leave the money in the bank and hire a mill for the week with a demo on the set up and you press on from there. Pay the owner operator for the day rather than having to go through all the teething problems associated with learning the ropes.

Originally Posted by John.G

You need to clarify - at least to yourself - what your goal is here.

35 trees isn't a lot of timber. It can be, but it's not likely to be: a lot of "plantation" timber isn't... it's just planted and left to fend for itself with no sivicultural practices employed resulting in low grade sawlogs. There's also a learning curve associated with learning to operate any mill, and thats going to chew up a few of them before you're even halfway competent. So you need to understand for yourself just how good your resource is in terms of what volume of wood you actually have, and what quality it is, and what value you might get from them.

You need to understand about recovery rates. A large percentage of each log disappears into sawdust, or edgings, or is heartwood, or grades out for whatever reason. The lower the grade of the log the higher the loss to those factors will be, and those lower grade logs also give a greater ratio of low value product to high value product... you get more pallet boards and less flooring for example.

It takes time to mill. Do you have that time available to you?

It costs money to mill. Can you carry the cost of buying a sawmill, and running it - including that time - and storing the timber until it's sold? A lot of that depends on how you value your time: if you're doing this for a hobby or in your spare time between jobs on the farm then your time is valued differently then someone who needs to mill profitably to eat.

How will you pull the logs out, handle sawn timber etc? Do you have machinery thats able to do that or are you going to have to buy/hire some in or can you just do it by hand?

Then we get to the issue of waste. What do you define as waste? As a commercial operator I often feel bad about the amount of waste we leave behind us... big crotches in particular. Then there's what we "waste" off the docking saw. My docking saw waste pile would meet the total demand of this website for boxmaking and pen blank timbers... but it's not worth the time it takes to salvage those bits: ie a commercial operator has to look at each piece of timber that could potentially be recovered and decide if it's going to cost less to recover it then it would be worth. Back to the issue of "how do you value your time" again. You need to understand that just because there's a piece of wood there, doesn't mean you have to take it - it might just cost you more to recover that bit then it's worth.

The way I see this you have four options:
· Buy a mill and do the lot yourself. Insert another gratuitous plug for Lucas Mill here – bang for your buck they’re hard to beat, however depending on your resource there are other options out there that may better meet your needs
· Sell the logs to a sawmiller, either fixed or portable. Probably the lowest dollar value for what you have, but then all you have to do is watch from a distance and bank the cheque afterwards too. They’ll take what they think is profitable to cut.
· Get your logs milled for you by a sawmiller. There are options there in terms of how you pay and what you pay for, and what equipment comes to do the job - and if you aren’t happy after the first few logs you can always go find someone else, or shift to an hourly rate to cover the costs of cutting what he regards as unviable.
· Take either of the previous two options and then get/hire gear to handle the “waste” yourself. If all you need to handle are small billets then there are a lot of cheaper options out there then if you need to handle the big pieces too. And that may be as little as a decent chainsaw and a firewood splitter. Don’t discount firewood as a way to salvage value from whats left, particularly that close to Melbourne.

What you need to do is find and talk to a couple of sawmillers about what you have there, including on site inspections. Get an idea of what they consider as worth their time, ask what they will take and what they will leave and why they will leave it. If the answer is “costs more to cut then it’s worth” you need to ask yourself if you can do better then this guy who makes his living at this. Sometimes you can – again it depends on how you value your time.

Whatever you choose I wish you well with your venture, and welcome to the forum

Well said

Originally Posted by Bob Mc

Hi
I am new to this forum and after some advice, we have about 35 cypress macrocarpa, about 80 years old, on a farm in gippsland that need to be removed. A local tree feller has quoted to drop the trees and mill the good sections but wants to burn the rest. I am concerned that he will be very selective about what is mill able and we will finish up with a lot of timber going up in smoke. We are also considering buying a lucas mill and milling the timber, mostly to use but possibly selling some of it.
I have done a bit of woodwork but have no experience with milling.
Any suggestions or comments would be appreciated.
Thanks

Bob

Seemingly not a difficult timber to mill(little internal tension),with quite a few applications.The millers ,as usual,will only take the 'clear' wood when selecting their logs.Not seeing your trees makes it difficult to ascertain what percentage of the tree they are likely to want.My advice is to google as much info that you can on the species(its uses,and value in the marketplace).and try to evaluate what sort of returns are likely to come your way.Do you have other species on your farm to mill,or is this a one off harvest?The reason for suggesting to mill it yourself,was because there will be a huge amount of head wood,left in the paddock by the millers.These surely could be converted into landscape material,adding to the critical mass of useable sawlog.A Lucas mill was my obvious first choice,but John is right,there are other options out there.As for banking the 'cheque',it sometimes NEVER arrives,and if and when it does,the amount is often compromised.Get them to pay upfront(NO EXCEPTIONS),as this action will ensure you don't get ripped off.Certainly,there is alot to consider,alot of variables,so choose wisely .Milling is bloody hard yakka,and there are a number of decent ,honest,and proficient millers out there that could serve you well.Maybe you'll take to milling like a duck to water,maybe you wont.Barterbuilt was on the money suggesting you locate a miller in your area,and spend some time with them learning the ropes...all the best with your venture..MM

For the record,this stuff apparently is useful for outdoor furniture,garden sleepers,and also 'fine' furniture..and is used extensively all around the world.All past threads on this forum, regarding its utility,workability,seasoning,and worth,are very positive.Even if you end up with only 5 sawn cube of premium slabs/boards out of the 'Butts'(sure there would be much more),that is value enough to pay for a big chunk of the purchase price of the mill.. not many timbers are useful both indoors and outdoors..this one is,apparently ..MM.

Originally Posted by MAPLEMAN

For the record,this stuff apparently is useful for outdoor furniture,garden sleepers,and also 'fine' furniture..and is used extensively all around the world.All past threads on this forum, regarding its utility,workability,seasoning,and worth,are very positive.Even if you end up with only 5 sawn cube of premium slabs/boards out of the 'Butts'(sure there would be much more),that is value enough to pay for a big chunk of the purchase price of the mill.. not many timbers are useful both indoors and outdoors..this one is,apparently ..MM.

I had a bit of a look about too. Seems to grade up to F7, though it's a provisional grade with no species specific grade data ex Australia. Moderate durability when exposed, considered in NZ to be a H3.1 species.... so fine for interior usage, or exterior above ground. NZ code allows it for exterior claddings etc, but not suitable for exterior joists or other timbers that are exposed above ground and difficult to replace. Life expectancy around 15 years in ground but that's NZ not here... give it a swim to make it green and it'd do okay in ground one suspects though thats going to eat into any margin for landscape timber/ fenceposts quite considerably. Interior durability is very good and it finds a lot of usage in beams. Looks like NZ Kauri, and the shrinkage rates suit GOS application for that. Makes nice interior sheathing too, and that doesnt need to carry a grade.

Of course getting that F7A grade is going to depend on log quality. I saw F4 mentioned for overmature paddock shelter belt trees - presumably knots dropped it back. Seems the highest value would be cutting what will grade for beams and the rest for cladding or sheathing, together with whatever else you can get out of it for turning/ furniture etc.

I found prices around the $900/cube AUD mark (retail) for F7A in common scantling sizes. Of course, as you said, it all depends on the actual trees.

This is not an easy timber to air dry. A strange characteristic with golden cypress is that it becomes brittle as it ages. This would have a lot to do with it being graded back to F4.

Originally Posted by rustynail

This is not an easy timber to air dry.

A lot of timbers are difficult to season,R N ,but if due care is taken,one can still get good results.I would suggest quarter sawing the boards(giving them more stability),and perhaps milling the slabs oversize a little.If seasoning is an issue,it certainly doesn't seem to inhibit its use or popularity.Black Bean can be a SHOCKER,and look how well received it is amongst the woodworking fraternity.And at around $1000 a sawn cube min,it is definitely worth milling,particularly if you own the logs (and mill)..i can find nothing but positives about the stuff...MM

Originally Posted by John.G

I had a bit of a look about too. Seems to grade up to F7, though it's a provisional grade with no species specific grade data ex . Seems the highest value would be cutting what will grade for beams and the rest for cladding or sheathing, together with whatever else you can get out of it for turning/ furniture etc.

.

John,i am thinking the furniture grade stuff(wide,figurative slabs,clear,quarter-sawn boards) may well fetch much better money than $900m3..MM

Originally Posted by MAPLEMAN

John,i am thinking the furniture grade stuff(wide,figurative slabs,clear,quarter-sawn boards) may well fetch much better money than $900m3..MM

yeah mate, you're right. I'd not argue that at all.

I know of a bloke who cut 1 tree. Blocked it around in the scrub by hand, then he sawed up to his knees in a creek bed with them big old tiger stripe leeches swinging off him all day and carried it out to where he could get it onto a landcruiser with a packhorse. Thirty thousand dollars off that one log, sold in one lot inside a month.

I know another guy who bought a farm and paid it off inside a year with silky oak and maple out of a patch of scrub not moren 15 acres that no-one had ever really looked into - last cut was off a 9' GRB limit in the late 40's and well... those "little" 3 footers had grown up some since then.

And I know the bulk of us battle on from one log to the next... few good ones, few bad ones, the bulk of them average. We make enough to pay the bills, keep a roof over our heads etc etc. I'd not be putting stars into anyones eyes with best case scenarios. As you said it all depends on the logs...

Were it me I'd be doing an awfull lot of thinking, then getting someone in to cut a few of them before I bought anything. Just to see where the average might be going to go before I spent much money on gear for a one off job is all.