Thread: Using a trailer winch for small logs

If you hunt through the Arboristsite.com (http://www.arboristsite.com/milling-saw-mills/) you will see some really good examples of trailers being used to move large long logs using winches.
Small winches can roll logs and load from the side. To drag a log lengthwise up a ramp onto a trailer you will need a more powerful winch.

Also look at youtube.
This one is excellent: Firewood Log Trailer - YouTube

Originally Posted by MAI

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I can move very small logs - bit more than the firewood rounds size range - by hand.

Have you tried using a sack trolley?
I have moved logs up to about 1.8m long x ~300 mm in diameter using a decent one with pump up tyres.

Have a look at a small trailer mounted swivel crane based on a hydraulic jack, have seen a lot of them mounted on farmers tray tops, light trucks and trailers, the will lift up to 1 tonne.
Kryn

Not to state the obvious...

Log trucks move logs - and as someone who's paid for logs to be delivered for years, cartage rates are huge, almost 50% in some cases of the royalty costs of the logs themselves. They are big, heavy commodities to load, move & unload...

To duplicate this with a trailer is possible..

BUT

This problem is the exact reason the portable sawmill was invented - take the mill to the log not the other way around!

You can shift the lumber off the log one piece at a time by hand - with a ute and trailer, the same ute and trailer that you use to take the mill to the log!

You save all the problem.... of moving logs and comming across logs too big to move that must be left behind - the large ones are where your best recovery rates are!

Here in WA, you have another problem shifting logs off private property!

It's against the law (Forests act) to carry unbranded timber in the round (log form) without a permit and private property brand (the branding hammer and permit must be paid for and obtained from FPC (Forest Products Commission) on each and every occasion.

In the event a forest officer sees illegal cartage of logs (on a trailer) he is legally empowered to stop the vehicle and seize (take possession of) the unbranded logs.

In the event of a seizure - all timber belongs to the crown by the act until you prove otherwise with your permit and private property brand details on the permit that match the brand on the end of the logs and stumps they came from on private property.

Here in WA - you CAN buy a craftwood license that entitles you to log product in the round unbranded from the forest floor, no longer than 1.5meters in length and 300 mm dia (1 trailer load per license).

That's the ONLY legal way you can shift a log in round form on a trailer of any kind (including a log truck trailer) including from private property - it's an offense to transport it without a brand (unbranded) even from private property the log immediately becomes property of the crown until you prove otherwise (a situation where onus of proof is reversed - you have to prove your innocence not the forests products commission prove your guilt - if you hope to recover your timber logs).

Here's the thing...

A forests officer doesn't have the legal authority to stop / detain a truck or trailer carrying "milled lumber" under the forests act, only logs in the round!

If you mill the log onsite on the PP (private property) into sawn lumber, you can load it and transport it anywhere you like with legal impunity.

In short it's just not worth the trouble to shift logs in the round from anywhere, because of the inconvenience of the whole delivery note system with permits and private property branding hammers.

Portable sawmills get around the entire legality issue with logs and lumber - which is WHY the FPC went out of its way using OH&S public liability excuses to prevent Lewisaw portable sawmill owners/operators from entering our forests, to mill wind fallen logs from the forests floor.

There's a zillion good reasons to mill it onsite.

Trailer manufacturers would sell log trailers if there was market...

I recall catching a guy from Manjimup once (back when I was a forester for then CALM), using his 7 tonne farm truck... to take logs off the forest floor back to his mill on his farm...

He had a fold down gantry in the back of his tipping tray, and a electric winch at the front of the tray...

He would back his truck into the log, end on & then stand the gantry with pins in the side of his steel tray sides... run the winch cable over the gantry, then tip the tray so the cable lifted the end of the log....off the ground to tray height...

He would back the tipped tray on the truck in under the end of the log, as well as winch it forward - and keep doing so till the log was in the tray - then lower the tray, drop the tilt tray till it was flat, pull the pins on the gantry and drive off - tip the log out back at the farm.

You could use this simple but effective method, with a tipping tray trailer.



That's a very simplified drawing...

You CAN make a trailer that tips with a the same winch and cable system... but hydraulics is so much more time efficient.

Again I am not sure what the legislation is in Vic - but here in the west you'd be committing an offense to cart PP logs without a P.P. brand and permit / weigh bridge & delivery docket etc under our forests act and ownership of all such timber produce under the act resides with the crown. (You have to go to the FPC office and pay for the PP brand hammer & PP log permit documentation and take the branding hammer back to the office afterwards).

Hope that gives food for thought - the obvious answer is to take the mill to the log and not just for convenience reasons (i.e. for legal reasons).

In Melbourne the mileage may vary!

If you get caught transporting logs in the round off PP with a tipping trailer - & i never heard of you OK?

Cheers

Originally Posted by BobL

If you hunt through the Arboristsite.com (http://www.arboristsite.com/milling-saw-mills/) you will see some really good examples of trailers being used to move large long logs using winches.
Small winches can roll logs and load from the side. To drag a log lengthwise up a ramp onto a trailer you will need a more powerful winch.

Also look at youtube.
This one is excellent: Firewood Log Trailer - YouTube


Have you tried using a sack trolley?
I have moved logs up to about 1.8m long x ~300 mm in diameter using a decent one with pump up tyres.

Thanks for the links. Looks like it's feasible to use a trailer winch. WRT a sack trolley, did you have that in mind for moving logs from a trailer to the processing site? And moving logs to the trailer?

Originally Posted by Timless Timber

This problem is the exact reason the portable sawmill was invented - take the mill to the log not the other way around!

You can shift the lumber off the log one piece at a time by hand - with a ute and trailer, the same ute and trailer that you use to take the mill to the log!

You save all the problem.... of moving logs and comming across logs too big to move that must be left behind - the large ones are where your best recovery rates are!

Here in WA, you have another problem shifting logs off private property!


Cheers

Some homeowners are OK with you turning up with a mill but others aren't. I've discussed this with our local councillor who said that any extended milling session would probably attract some attention under noise legislation. And generally the arborist wants to leave it all nice and neat and orderly so he or she may not be keen on a CSM turning up later to do the milling. WRT legislation covering small logs I don't know if this is an issue in Victoria. You see big loads of firewood moving around in trailers. The log sizes I'm considering are roughly firewood with a bit of attitude

Mai Glad I'm not in WA as per Timless's description. I'm in Qld and we do not have the same restrictions. I agree that the best method is to mill onsite but this is not always practical from the property owners point of view partic in town. As you say they often just want it gone and will not tolerate the time it takes, the noise and dust you'll create, so I see the underlying premise of your question. In the absence of any machinery (because my operation was just not that big enough to afford it) I did the following. I have a trailer with a drop front and tail gates, which allow clear passage of both log and winch cable. These 'gates' become the ramps. I use a timber slide (spotted gum as its greasy and scuff resistant) 'clipped' onto the ramp to assist guide the log on the ramp as I'm winching. I welded up a winch tower which I can attach to the trailer drawbar. I use a snatch block on the winch cable as needed, with a snigging chain around the log. Put a feedbag on the cable to reduce spring if it breaks. Reverse the trailer into the end of the log or as close as possible and wiich the log on in similar fashion to winching on a boat trailer. Plenty of elbow grease, and a log roller is essential to get the log positioned well to make winching easier. I have also used a slider (steel, shaped like a dung shovel) under the nose of the log to prevent damage to peoples lawns, but its only good for short runs. You'll not be salvaging huge logs but certainly will assist you to get logs bigger than those you can pick up by hand. Any useable log turned into timber and used is better than seeing it go to waste/chipped.

Timless

I have never really planned where I was going to live: It somehow just fell into place, but with a level of bureaucracy as you have described in WA it's appeal has diminished in my eyes . I wonder how seriously it is policed. Quite stringently from your comments.

MAI

Another of our millers, Newjohn, posed just this question a while ago. There are several solutions in his thread that might be of interest to you:

https://www.woodworkforums.com/f132/l...railer-138553/

I used to have a setup similar to the one Kryn suggested, but you have to be careful where you position it on the vehicle or trailer. I used to have it on one side of the tray on a Mazda 3500 (GVM 6.2T). I t was a swiveling jib crane I made up. It was strong enough, but it wanted to tip the truck over so I had to place a prop under the tray. Also I used my winch in the top of the crane. When I think back on this it is against the manufacturer's advice as most winches are not hoists and shouldn't be used as such.

4WD style winches are quite cheap if you purchase the Asian made product. Just watch out for the ratio (gearing) as if it is too low, you'll be there all day hauling a single log. Around 4000lbs should be ample for your purposes.

Regards
Paul

Bushmiller - from memory the WA Forests act was enacted back in about 1908 I think (anyone feel free to correct me)... so logs have been getting hauled (by rail in the old days) and by trucks ever since.

The whole fallers brand (and thus private property brand) thing evolved out of that act - its the measure by which fallers (who all have their own individual brand assigned) get paid for the wood they fall - by the truck delivery dockets, which are then tallied up for the weights of the logs bearing their specific fallers brand on the butt end.

In essence this is why so many fallers often end up dead - the more wood they fall - the more they earn, so the incentive to go fast and hard often tends to cause them to make a mistake or forget to look up and check for a widow maker branch. I'd be surprised if other states forest acts don't work similarly.

Foresters enforce it [pretty carefully for supply by trucks to mills - less so for the odd guy nicks a small log on a trailer or his farm truck...more like if you stumble on one....

The "royalty" for a big log (paid to the govt) isn't big... they used to be around $20m^3 at stump - and my "feature grade contract" was at ~$110/m3 so it gave me first right of refusal to birds eye, curly, or any other highly sought after feature timber property (large diameter at butt for slabs for eg).

Catching a guy nicking a log of say 3m^3 @$20 a m^3 was worth say $60 in royalties.... to the govt - it costs more than that to process the paper work....

Its where guys nick truckloads of logs at a time, that Foresters get "interested"... in applying the act and seizing timber...

OR

Where a neighbor sees it happening and writes in a written complaint (say his farming neighbor who he is in some dispute with has been taking logs to split for fence posts without paying the royalty) - once someone makes a written complaint, you have no option but to "investigate", because to not do so then threatens loss of your job, once the media get involved etc if it looks like you have shown favor to someone by looking the other way.

Yes WA is a pedantic place to live - in fact it's called W.A. the "Wait Awhile" state coz it takes forever for anything to happen.

Yet strangely about 3000 a week leave the east to come here for our mining boom economy jobs.

MAI, often theres no need to drag or lift a log onto a trailer or tray as they can be rolled on. This sheoak I put onto the tray by parking beside the log, using the 2 tray sides as ramps (chocked then), attaching an old hand winch to the opposite side of the tray with some chain, then running the winch cable over & then under the log, then I ran the cable back & attached to the log side of the tray. Wound up the winch & the log rolled up the ramps onto the tray nicely. it was all quite make-shift but it worked well, one day I'll get some proper ramps & a better winch.
Disclaimer: never stand in front of where a log may roll. (I'm sure you know this stuff).
I stopped at a mates place on the way home & he couldn't figure out how the hell I got the log on there.

cheers,
Dean.

sheoak1.jpg

Originally Posted by spray-tech

MAI, often theres no need to drag or lift a log onto a trailer or tray as they can be rolled on. This sheoak I put onto the tray by parking beside the log, using the 2 tray sides as ramps (chocked then), attaching an old hand winch to the opposite side of the tray with some chain, then running the winch cable over & then under the log, then I ran the cable back & attached to the log side of the tray. Wound up the winch & the log rolled up the ramps onto the tray nicely. it was all quite make-shift but it worked well, one day I'll get some proper ramps & a better winch. . . .

Yep, that is a low tech but effective way to do it - Mai, You could also get them up onto your table the same way.

Originally Posted by spray-tech

MAI, often theres no need to drag or lift a log onto a trailer or tray as they can be rolled on. This sheoak I put onto the tray by parking beside the log, using the 2 tray sides as ramps (chocked then), attaching an old hand winch to the opposite side of the tray with some chain, then running the winch cable over & then under the log, then I ran the cable back & attached to the log side of the tray. Wound up the winch & the log rolled up the ramps onto the tray nicely. it was all quite make-shift but it worked well, one day I'll get some proper ramps & a better winch.
Disclaimer: never stand in front of where a log may roll. (I'm sure you know this stuff).
I stopped at a mates place on the way home & he couldn't figure out how the hell I got the log on there.

cheers,
Dean.

I have a truck and bobcat for moving larger logs but some times I just use two ramps and a small winch to roll smaller logs onto my trailer. My winch is only a alcheepo electric that you can make your self a cuppa a have a nap by the time the log does one revolution but I have had it for years and still does the job.

I load logs onto my trailer this way using a hand winch.

Log on ramp.jpgLogs on trailer.jpg

Originally Posted by Pagie

I load logs onto my trailer this way using a hand winch.

Log on ramp.jpgLogs on trailer.jpg

I used to do something similar...

Image693.jpg Image695.jpg Image698.jpg

and then I got bob...
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and now do this...
Image882.jpg