Thread: mulga , it's bleeding obvious

So a couple of people gave me consent to publish their opinions:

"Dear John,
With apologies for my slow reply - busy time of year running up to the end of the Spring term.
I have had a good look at the Antiquity paper and the accompanying photos of Kaakutja's injuries and I am not convinced that these wounds to the skeleton were caused by wooden weapons. Having said that I should confess my ignorance first of all in that I have never actually seen a Lil-Lil or a Wonna but have only read about such things but all the same I remain deeply sceptical about the attribution given in the article.

The wound to Kaakutja's face and the slice off the humeral head are consistent with a very sharp blade -I am prepared to stand corrected but I would have said that even a very hard wood could not be sharpened to this extent. I could believe the healed linear wound could be a linear depressed fracture which could in theory be produced by a thin sharp hardwood object but the strikes to the face and shoulder would have resulted in fractures and not the fine slices into bone seen here. I am happy to accept that such weapons may indeed have been sharp enough to inflict cuts and penetrating injuries to soft tissue but not to bone.

Of course I could be proved wrong as it would be relatively simple to test this experimentally -pig skulls are out of the question as they are too dissimilar to human crania -but animal long bones (pig, sheep etc)should work fine. Also it would be have been good to bring some microscopy to bear on the cut edges -which could again be compared with those produced by metal bladed weapons -although I assume this is now out of the question as Kaakutja has been reburied.

I reiterate that I am happy to be proved wrong and would underline the pitfalls of passing opinion from photos when I haven't seen the actual bones but otherwise I would take the view that 'if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck -then it's probably a duck' in that if someone had shown me this and asked me what I thought I would have said 'it looks like someone with metal weapons reached Australia before the Dutch (etc.)' Also there is the issue that if such wounds can be inflicted with wooden weapons why haven't they been noticed in skeletal remains before -not just here but also elsewhere -if wooden blades could do this then why bother producing metal ones?
Best Regards and good luck with your continued investigations,

Dr Martin Smith
[email protected].u
Principal Academic in Forensic & Biological Anthropology
Bournemouth University."
--
("His interests centre principally on areas of taphonomy and trauma with relevance to both forensic and archaeological remains. Martin has strong interests in the study of conflict from prehistoric to modern times.")
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"From: Janet Devlin [email protected]
Administrative Officer, Fellowship Services Department
Royal Australasian College of Surgeons
www.surgeons.or
Subject: FW: osteology ( Toorale skull)
To: Annette Holian [email protected],

Dear Military Surgery Section Committee Members.....

From: Annette Holian
To: Michael Redmond
Subject: Fwd: osteology ( Toorale skull ).

"I have no experience of a hardwood blade injury to the head and have seen no papers on this subject, but here is my supposition : F=MA
Hardwood is (as the name implies) extremely hard. If the blade were of sufficient mass and acceleration it is likely to cause a comminuted depressed fracture. This could be the topic of a biomedical engineering study! "
Michael
[email protected]"

I think this is a continuation of thread 1 piece of mulga. To buy.

Yes it is but these are recent definite opinions from bone workers. Martin Smith is into ancient skeletons and weapon injuries and did tests using arrows on bone. Shaving the jaw bone on Toorale skull seems the decider - a 10mm thick wood blade has to be 5mm into the bone inside the cutting edge which makes it impossible.

Originally Posted by johnwelch

There are mulga chisels for sale but strangely that means the handle not the pointy bit . Cambridge Uni has published an Oz article that mulga can cut like steel blades do. This bloke got a headache somehow.
Catalyst: Toorale Man murder mystery - ABC TV Science

<cite class="_Rm" style="color: rgb(0, 102, 33); font-style: normal; font-size: 14px;">www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/4211835.htm</cite>


Apr 7, 2015 - ....skull wounds on Toorale Man appear similar to those on gladiators in Imperial Rome.
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Sharpened Mulga was tested on pig skull at Canberra uni , but no go. I banged a pig with mulga and no go . A sharp mulga splinter was hammered into wet masonite and did less than a blunt chisel, same on wet pine wood . So yeah don't buy mulga chisels or mulga bread-knives - they always let you down . Germans make an oak knife but cheat on the deal and use a steel edge , false advertising.

Anyone out there ever used mulga blades in the kitchen or in sword-fights? How about mulga bayonets for the regiment ? The local butcher is over mulga , he's back to steel .

hi John

we had a discussion on this a while ago (maybe in 2015?).
My own opinion is that the mulga sword theory is based on very sloppy forensics. Back when this issue was first discussed, I found a paper where, based on the bone fragments, the researcher could tell whether an attacker was right or left handed and whether a metal weapon was serrated or a plain cutting edge. The "Mulga sword" theory seems to be founded on an assumption that there were no steel weapons in Australia prior to 1788.

Back in 2015, I'm sure one of the posters mentioned that there is an indigenous folk memory of a steel blade moving along the Darling well prior to 1788.

Hi,
I read this with great interest, as I am carving traditional Japanese wooden training swords (Bokken/Bokuto) from Australian hardwoods.

I have built a rig to test each one as it is developing from blank to finished item.
On that, for bones of the forearm (one of the traditional cuts, 'Kote') I am using 25mm Tasoak, for standard repeatable tests.
For the skull, (the traditional cut 'Men') I am using mature coconuts, which are fun, but I'm not really sure how accurate it is compared to reality.

Well, I realise there is variability between heads, coconuts and 25mm Tasoak, but if I don't start somewhere, I will never get anywhere.

Does anyone have any thoughts on more accurate items for testing, especially any scientific data on forces needed to break various parts of the human body.

I don't mean to sound too far out there with this, it's a bit of fun.

If you want to see where I am up to so far, I am posting the testing on YouTube, feel free to let me know if I can improve on what I am doing (forgive the sense of humour).



https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...y=samisabokken

All the best,

Stu

Hi Stu

from what I understand the forensics of metal on bone injuries are fairly well established. Experienced scientists can tell if an attacker was right or left handed and whether the blade was straight edged or serrated.

For the Mulga sword theory to stand, researchers would surely have found widespread skeletal evidence across much of Australia. As far as I know, apart from Toorale Man, there is no such evidence. Toorale Man's injuries are consistent with a sharp metal blade.
The interesting speculation then becomes how did a metal blade come to be travelling along the Darling around the time Toorale Man was killed.
There are a number of interesting theories.

Hi Ian,

I'm with you on the steel blade, in the end the characteristics of a metal sword are very different than a wooden one.
From my trials so far I would have no problem breaking most parts of a body, though I would like to come up with a fairly accurate test dummy so I can trail the Bokken that I am making.

I had a few thoughts:
A trip to the butcher for a side of a sheep, tie it to my frame and go to town, then have a barby and do a CSI collection and layout of the parts to see the effect.
Mmmmm, have to tell everyone to leave the dog at home.
Maybe buy a beef thigh bone and make a jig to hold it, but it doesn't address the problem that most people are well sheathed with muscle, tendons and fat.

Oh well, I'll keep going and post my results.

Cheers.
Stu

Originally Posted by Stu Smith

Hi Ian,

A trip to the butcher for a side of a sheep, tie it to my frame and go to town, then have a barby ....
Stu

At least the meat will be well tenderized.

Originally Posted by Stu Smith

Hi Ian,

I'm with you on the steel blade, in the end the characteristics of a metal sword are very different than a wooden one.
From my trials so far I would have no problem breaking most parts of a body, though I would like to come up with a fairly accurate test dummy so I can trail the Bokken that I am making.

I had a few thoughts:
A trip to the butcher for a side of a sheep, tie it to my frame and go to town, then have a barby and do a CSI collection and layout of the parts to see the effect.

I'd suggest you save your time.

If the injuries inflicted by a metal blade can be recognised after 2000+ years, I'd hazard the guess that the forensics around blunt object injuries -- i.e those caused by clubs and sticks -- are as well studied as those caused by metal weapons.

Attacking a piece of wood with your Bokken will be sufficient.

Hi,

Well Bohdan, there's a thought..... I may apply the marinade at the same time.

Cheers